View Full Version : New Power: Mnemonic Absorption
hero4hire
01-24-06, 07:06 AM
Mnemonic Absorption
Effect: Alteration
Action: Full
Range: Touch
Duration: Continuous
Cost: 4 pp/rank
Saving Throw: Will
You may absorb the memories of a target and make use of his memory-based skills and feats, leaving the target with amnesia.
You must touch the target (requiring a melee attack roll) and the
target makes a Will Save. If the save fails the victim's memories are
erased (as per Memory Alteration pp. 107), You may then Mimic this Power's Rank x5 worth of Power Points in "Memory-based" skills and Feats. No Skill or Feat may have a Rank greater then the Rank of this Power
(As per Mimic pp. 92, "Memory-based" skills/feats are left up to the
discretion of the GM.) Furthermore you also have limited access to the
target's memories. Essentially once per turn you may ask any one
question and receive an answer from the target's memories. If the
target did not know the answer, you know that. (as per Mind Reading pp.
93) Information that the target does not consiously know
(subconsiously, repressed, amnesia) may be accessed by spending a Hero
Point.
Cost Breakdown
Memory Alter: .5pp/rank
(Base)2pp/rank
(Flaw)Ranged x2 -2pp/rank
Mind Reading: .5pp/rank
(Base)1pp/rank
(Extra)Duration x2 +2pp/rank
(Flaw)Range x2 -2pp/rank
(Flaw)Limited Probing Only -1pp/rank
Mimic: 3pp/rank (all memory skills & feats)
(Base)5pp/rank
(Extra)Duration +1pp/rank
(Flaw)Limited: Cannot mimic powers
(Flaw)Limited: Cannot mimic attributes
(Flaw)Limited: only skills & feats related to memory
Velmont
01-24-06, 01:11 PM
I would say two things to that. First, you tintroduce nothing new, it is simply a combination of already existing power. For that, you shouldn't even need to make it approve. We won't make a proposal for every power just because they are a bit more complicated than the usual.
Second, you should add an extra to the power: Linked (0pp/rank), which allow and force you to use these power together.
If it's going to leave them with amnesia, shouldn't it have drain too? Or is that the Memory Alter? (I don't see that power listed) Or are you talking about Mental Transform?
There are several powers in the book that are simply modified versions
of other powers (Life control, Sound Control, Hellfire control, etc,
all based off of some other power
with various flaws or modifiers). Given this is a complex combination
of powers, I don't see why you can't propose a completely new power,
given that he's, among other things, also trying to fix the multiple DC
issue. I'm not sure if that shouldn't have some extra cost built in,
but I'll need to look and consider it. It'd likely be 1 extra PP I
think to wrap them up.
Mental Transform is
+1 PP/Rank - Alternate save Will
+1 PP/Rank - Memory Alteration
+1 PP/Rank - Continuous Duration
-1 PP/Rank - Range: Touch (It's only ranged, so only 1 step)
Total: 2 PP/Rank
Mind Reading - you have that correct.
Total: +.5 PP/Rank
Mimic -
3 PP/Rank - Memory abilities (Skills, Feats, etc)
-2 PP/Rank - Limited: No Powers or Attributes
+1 PP/Rank - Contunuous Duration
Total: 2 PP/Rank
Overall power notes
+.5 PP/Rank - Linked under 1 save
Total: 5 PP/Rank ability, given that 1 save means it's an all or nothing power (which generaly makes it simpler to use, and doesn't bypass our limit of 2 saves per type of attack.
Options:
-1 PP/Rank - Limited to 1 person effected at a time
-1 PP/Rank - Fading: Memories fade at 1 PP/round to the Mnemonic Absorption (Probing becomes harder, less skills/feats can be mimmicked. Can be made progressive to increase the time.
I'm sure we can come up with a few more options, but those are initialy obvious ones to me.
Shalimar
01-24-06, 04:26 PM
Bront Memory Alter is a specific example listed of the Mental Transformation power. Memory alter is perception range, and 2pp/rank. So touch range is -2pp/rank, or .5pp Rank.
As to the wrapping of saves all into one, umm, that is the default
handling of multiple saves of the same type. There is no need to pay
more for it, in fact, it would be foolish to want it, because more
saves means more chance that the defender would fail. I think that was
why the limit on linked powers was put into place for living supers,
forcing multiple saves at the same time means the odds of failing at
least one go up.
Bront this was just a copy and pasting of my math from the other thread.
The problem is that the memory download feature of your power
does all at once what would take mindreading multiple full-round
actions to multiple minutes to acheive (including the extra saves at
decreasing difficulties) how quickly is the memory download suppoused
to occur?
Mind Reading is a lasting power. Once the duration of the Mind Reading hits continuous, there are no further saves made (after the first).
I would do the power like this:
Memory touch:
Memory Alter: .5pp/rank
(B)2pp/rank
(F)Ranged x2 -2pp/rank
Mind Reading: .5pp/rank
(B)1pp/rank
(E)Duration x2 +2pp/rank
(F)Range x2 -2pp/rank
(F)Limited Probing Only -1pp/rank
Mimic: 3pp/rank (all memory skills & feats)
(B)5pp/rank
(E)Duration +1pp/rank
(F)Limited: Cannot mimic powers
(F)Limited: Cannot mimic attributes
(F)Limited: only skills & feats related to memory
The problem with mimic is that it used to have so many building blocks
in 1E, now it doesn't you need to buy the 5pp/rank version then need to
start hacking away to trim it down to what you want (just skills and
feats, and only memory ones to boot).
Since the cost of linking powers if they cannot be used seperately is 0, I just didn't list it, You come out to 4 Power Points Per rank, to me, its one power without actually being linked, basically just building the power you want out of the effects availible, like you could in 1E. To make the power uncontrollable, you just tack on a drawback, and the worth of that would be up to the Judges.
The power
would take a full round action to make, and grant the target a single
will save (multiple saves of the same kind are all handled by 1 roll).
Velmont
01-24-06, 04:47 PM
Stated like that, you could use part of the power without the other. If you want it a all or nothing, you should add the Extra: Linked at cost 0pp/rank.
For judges: As I said, this power is a mix of already existing power. Talking about some difficult build in a thread, I encourage that, but I don't see the necessity to vote for it. If the power
is accepted by the characters' judges, it could be automatically
accepted, and possibily recorded in Living Supers Approved Rules
Content to help master to understand it.
If the power include modification to current rule, now it would become matter for voting.
Shalimar
01-24-06, 04:55 PM
Stated like that, you could use part of the power without the other. If you want it a all or nothing, you should add the Extra: Linked at cost 0pp/rank.
Its a +0 modifier, its implied, since it is all one power, I don't know that it is neccessary to state it, but if its important:
Mnemonic Absorbtion:
Linked +0 (0PP) (All effects of the power are linked)
Memory Altery
Mimic
Mind Reading
Bront Memory Alter is a specific example listed of the Mental Transformation power. Memory alter is perception range, and 2pp/rank. So touch range is -2pp/rank, or .5pp Rank.
Bront this was just a copy and pasting of my math from the other thread.
I see where I made my math error. Alternate Save from Fort to Will is a
+0, not +1. However, you forgot to change the duration from Sustained
to Continous. So it should only be 1 PP
As for charging for the single save, it's a disadvantage because it's
only 1 save, but it's an advantage because you're getting 3 effects
with it. Basicly, I'm using it to round up to a number so it's not a power at .5.
So, it should be 4 PP / Rank.
It needs to be voted on eventualy, becuse we're rolling 3 powers into
1, so it's one action. Granted, they way they are linked isn't easily
done with the existing powers, and to have them seperately won't quite
work right.
New Breakdown
-----------------------------------
Mental Transform is
+0 PP/Rank - Alternate save Will
+1 PP/Rank - Memory Alteration
+1 PP/Rank - Continuous Duration
-1 PP/Rank - Range: Touch (It's only ranged, so only 1 step)
Total: 1 PP/Rank
Mind Reading - you have that correct.
Total: +.5 PP/Rank
Mimic -
3 PP/Rank - Memory abilities (Skills, Feats, etc)
-2 PP/Rank - Limited: No Powers or Attributes
+1 PP/Rank - Contunuous Duration
Total: 2 PP/Rank
Overall power notes
+.5 PP/Rank - Linked under 1 save (1 save means 1 action, but only one save to make)
Total: 4 PP/Rank Power
------------------------------------
It's the 3 point Mimic because it's all typed traits (Memory related), but not powers or abilities.
Shalimar
01-25-06, 12:54 PM
Bront, page 107 lists 2 examples of the mental transform power, the 2nd example, is Memory Alteration
This is a Mental Transform (memories, 1 pp a rank) with the ranged (perception) extra. It costs 2pp per rank.
That is what I used for the memory alteration in the power, I just dropped the range down to touch. It is a sustained lasting power,
I just didn't know how long H4H wanted the victims to lose their
memories for, I guess bump it up to continuous to get it pretty much
forever.
As far as the mimic, you have to start at the 5pp/rank level because,
that is the only level that allows you to mimic different things at
once. 3pp/rank would be only skills, or only feat, 4pp/rank is only
powers, at 5pp/rank, its everything at once. Then you chop off powers,
and ability scores, and its back down to 3 a rank. Limit it to only
memory skills and feats, and its down to 2pp/rank. Add continuous, and
its up to 3/rank.
so 4.5 pp/rank
(1 +.5+3)
The +.5 is not part of the rules, linked is a +0 modifier, you are
charging for it. All of that stuff is covered on page 112 under the
Linked modifier.
That is what I used for the memory alteration in the power, I just dropped the range down to touch. It is a sustained lasting power,
I just didn't know how long H4H wanted the victims to lose their
memories for, I guess bump it up to continuous to get it pretty much
forever.
I did see that, I'm starting from the raw power itself, which is a 1 PP power with a normal range. Same thing you're doing.
Everything else is Continious, so this needs to be too.
As far as the mimic, you have to start at the 5pp/rank level because,
that is the only level that allows you to mimic different things at
once. 3pp/rank would be only skills, or only feat, 4pp/rank is only
powers, at 5pp/rank, its everything at once. Then you chop off powers,
and ability scores, and its back down to 3 a rank. Limit it to only
memory skills and feats, and its down to 2pp/rank. Add continuous, and
its up to 3/rank.
so 4.5 pp/rank
(1 +.5+3)
The +.5 is not part of the rules, linked is a +0 modifier, you are
charging for it. All of that stuff is covered on page 112 under the
Linked modifier.
Actualy, the 3 point one, at least as I read it, allows you to mimic
things with like descriptors (Mutant, Fire, Technological, Training for
example).
• 3 points: You can mimic all of a target’s traits of a particular type
(ability scores, skills, feats, or powers of a particular type or
descriptor) all at once.Memory Related is a type or descriptor that
applies to a fairly tight enough set of powers to work in this case.
It's all a bit of fiat, so I understand the debate, that's just how I read it :)
Input from others would be helpful :)
hero4hire
01-28-06, 03:44 PM
Stated like that, you could use part of the power without the other. If you want it a all or nothing, you should add the Extra: Linked at cost 0pp/rank.
For judges: As I said, this power is a mix of already existing power. Talking about some difficult build in a thread, I encourage that, but I don't see the necessity to vote for it. If the power
is accepted by the characters' judges, it could be automatically
accepted, and possibily recorded in Living Supers Approved Rules
Content to help master to understand it.
If the power include modification to current rule, now it would become matter for voting.
Note that I did modify "Mind Reading" aspect a bit, I see Mind-Reading
limited to Touch would need constant contact to keep on reading the
target's mind. Also the target may get additional Will saves, with
Bonuses if it is repressed or guarded memories. This did not jibe well
with the concept. The user of the Power
needed to get the memories "all at once" as it were, but I kept the
mechanic of only asking one question per round as the user would need
to sort through the target's memories. I also modified it further to
having to use a HP to access repressed memories as it still should be
harder.
Hence the need for approval and voting. If it were just the seperate powers "as is" I would have just built it.
Also I think it is cleaner and more appealing to list the power as "Mnemonic Absorption" and have a link to reference it, then listing the powers as "XXX linked to XXX linked to XXX"
hero4hire
01-28-06, 03:53 PM
I did see that, I'm starting from the raw power itself, which is a 1 PP power with a normal range. Same thing you're doing.
Everything else is Continious, so this needs to be too.
Actualy, the 3 point one, at least as I read it, allows you to mimic
things with like descriptors (Mutant, Fire, Technological, Training for
example).
Memory Related is a type or descriptor that applies to a fairly tight enough set of powers to work in this case.
It's all a bit of fiat, so I understand the debate, that's just how I read it :)
Input from others would be helpful :)
I agree that the 3 point Mimic should cover "Memory-related"
descriptor. I am not sure applying "No attributes or powers" would be
fair Flaws to apply as the descriptor probably couldn't Mimic most of
those things anyway and really doesnt limit it much.
I
agree that the 3 point Mimic should cover "Memory-related" descriptor.
I am not sure applying "No attributes or powers" would be fair Flaws to
apply as the descriptor probably couldn't Mimic most of those things
anyway and really doesnt limit it much.
You could argue intellegence or wisdom for memory, but that's reasonable.
You could roll them up into a 1 PP limit for only skills and feats.
Bump.
Where are we at with this?
hero4hire
03-03-06, 11:46 AM
Bump.
Where are we at with this?
I wish I knew...I think the general concensus was that most of it could
be done by the rules as is and there was little need for a NEW power. But I still think the slight tweaks to Mind Reading were needed to have a proper fit.
I agree, I think it needs approval as a new power, but there were talks on cost. Not sure if you revised it yet.
hero4hire
03-04-06, 02:13 PM
I agree, I think it needs approval as a new power, but there were talks on cost. Not sure if you revised it yet.
Right..I think you had it 1 point less due to the Mimic limitations. I
was erring on the side of caution, but will go with moral majority.
After
rereading how this worked again, and a little more knowledge of the
system now, I'm going to vote YES to this proposal, as origionaly
stated. I ultimately like how this works, and think it will add a
little interesting twist to the game.
Velmont
05-03-06, 11:13 PM
I'm reviewing this power, and there is only one thing bugging me. The possibility to use the Mind Reading as long as you hold that power... I need to revise the rule of Mind Reading before approval, but the Mimic aspect and Memory Blank aspect both satisfy me.
Actualy, that's how it's supposed to work. For the duration of the power, you can scan through the memories that you have absorbed as if you were reading them. Makes sense to me.
Velmont
05-04-06, 01:02 PM
I
don't have my book under my hand, but as I remember it, the target have
a way to resist after the first failed saving throw... I don't remember
if it is at each question or if it is just because the power is a Lasting power. If only one of those power is Lasting, I would put the duration of this power: Continuous (Lasting).
hero4hire
05-04-06, 07:35 PM
I
don't have my book under my hand, but as I remember it, the target have
a way to resist after the first failed saving throw... I don't remember
if it is at each question or if it is just because the power is a Lasting power. If only one of those power is Lasting, I would put the duration of this power: Continuous (Lasting).
Once you make a Lasting power Continuous it doesn't allow for new saves at all so listing it as Lasting is superfluous. Check it out pp 70 under Lasting.
I
believe there are checks you make to probe for information, but it
opperates just like mind reading, he's simply accessing the memories
from what he stole, not from the subject's mind directly. However,
failing a check to find the correct information does not break the power's hold.
hero4hire
05-05-06, 04:23 AM
I
believe there are checks you make to probe for information, but it
opperates just like mind reading, he's simply accessing the memories
from what he stole, not from the subject's mind directly. However,
failing a check to find the correct information does not break the power's hold.
Correct! I would think sorting through a jumble of foreign memories
would require rolls. Mechanically it is almost identical to Mind
Reading with Modifiers. However the descriptor is differ and there was
a slight tweak in Mechanics
i.e. Information that the target does not consiously know
(subconsiously, repressed, amnesia) may be accessed by spending a Hero
Point.
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