[barsoomcore]

Originally posted by BlackJaw
A vehilce's Dexterity score is the Pilot's score.

I disagree. A vehicle has NO Dexterity score. That is the defining characteristic of a vehicle. No Dex means it is unable to maneuver itself.

A vehicle has Strength because it can apply force. It may have Constitution because it may be healthy or not. It can have Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma because it can have a personality. But it cannot have Dexterity. It cannot turn or accelerate unless a pilot uses the controls. It is the pilot's skill that determines the maneuverability of the vessel.

A vehicle's reflex save is the pilot's save minus the handling modifier (because it involves moving).

I'm not sure about this. I like it because it's simple (though I think you mean PLUS the handling modifier -- a better modifier should give a better save), but I'm not sure it's appropriate in all circumstances. My other instinct is to use the pilot's Piloting skill modifier, but that causes a problem with creatures -- should they get their Reflex Save or their Piloting modifier? I say we leave it as the pilot's Reflex Save plus the handling modifier.

I'm currently toying with the idea that the vehilce's Wis and Cha scores are the pilot's score

I don't think that's necessary. A vehicle has its own Wisdom and Charisma scores and thus has its own Will saves and can make Charisma checks normally

Encumbrance. Vehilce should have encumbrance for cargo... and it should probably be listed with cargo bays.

Wouldn't encumbrance just be a function of the cargo itself rather than the bay? Each component has a weight to it, right? So you just add up the weight of all components plus whatever cargo and crew are aboard and you're done. Compare that with STR (modified by size) and boo-yeah.

Problem: when determining the cargo listing do we use light, medium, or heavey.

Sure, why not? Apply all the standard penalties. Max Dex won't matter. The Check Penalty applies to Piloting skill checks. Seems like it'll work just fine to me.

Types: mostly vehicle will be of the Construct, Undead, and Plant types...

See my reply in the "Intelligent Ship" thread for my thoughts on all this. But basically I think that a vessel, whether a creature or a vehicle, can have vessel components. A vehicle has no Dexterity score and requires a pilot. A creature does not. Therefore, I'm thinking we now have TWO type modifiers, Vessels and Vehicles. But let's discuss this over there.

Speed, Lift, Glide, manuvering, the works: So your idea for determing these improtant features is this(?):
1) a ship's minum speed is determined by comparing it's Primary Lift againts it's Size. If it's Primary Lift is equal to or greater then its HD, then it's min. speed is 0 (hover).

Right.

2)If the ship's Primary Lift is not equal to or greater then its HD, then we subtract the Primary Lift & Speed Lift from the HD, take the resulting number and use that to determine the Min. Speed (but the speed must 30' or more). The vehilce's engines must meet that speed or better to fly in gravity.

Not sure that's the way it'll work. But the idea is that you subtract the Pure Lift from the number of Hit Dice, take the remainder and use it in some function with the Speed Lift to determine Minumum Speed. We need a function that, given a positive remainder, will always return a non-zero value for Minimum Speed.

3) speed is determiend by adding up all Speed points & glide speed points and comparing it to a table.

Yep, sound good.

4) Glide speed is determiend by adding up all glide speed points (which come from components that do not need power) and comparing that to the same table above.

Glide Speed and Maneuverability are qualities of components. A wing, for example, supplies Speed Lift, Glide Speed, Maneuverability and Glide Maneuverability values. An engine provides Strength, Speed and Maneuverability values.

5) Manuveribilty and Glide man. work in the same way. The table lists clumsy as the worst option for a vehicle/vessel.

Right. We are talking about vessels here, to be specific. Both vehicles and creatures.

How do we do Vehilce STR scores?

I think components should include STR values just like Speed or Maneuverability. Total up the STR values of all components, work in size somehow, and we're done. There doesn't have to be a correlation between STR and Speed, right? So an engine may provide both, but a component like "Streamlined Design" or "Smooth Finish" may provide Speed without Strength.

Vessel melee weapons that don't rely on a vessel's Strength may include their own (like a grappling arm or a tractor beam), but that can be handled case-by-case in the weapon descriptions.

And Then...

Wyvern mumbled:
I don't think that vessels which use Wisdom for piloting checks should also use it to modify AC and Reflex saves. However, I'm not sure Dex applies either. Frankly, it's just hard to imagine a star destroyer or a sky-galleon dodging attacks. If nothing else, I think that both the handling modifier and the turn modifier (which is based on maneuverability class) should be applied to AC and Reflex saves. What are your thoughts?

See? If we say vehicles don't have Dexterity then this whole problem goes away. They don't apply any Dexterity modifier to AC or Reflex Saves because they don't have any. We don't care if they're piloted via Wisdom or Dexterity for these purposes. I'm not sure they should get Handling and Turn modifiers applied to AC -- then creatures should, too, and that means we have to change, for example, the Griffin as written. It now gets a Turn modifier (for its Maneuverability Class) applied to its AC while flying. I don't think that's right.

Now creatures get a Dex modifier to AC but of course they do. They have a Dexterity.

If a pilot wants to improve her vehicle's AC she can perform a Complex Stunt. That's why it's there -- to allow Piloting expertise to apply to AC. But if the pilot's not making a particular effort to avoid attacks or make her vehicle hard to target then the vehicle doesn't get any bonus to AC.

Huh? Huh? Am I being convincing here?