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[lutecius]

Originally Posted by Fifth Element

If you're referring to me, please check my sig.

I have never played 4E. Please bear that in mind before assuming that I'm some 4E fanboy.

Erm... doesn't defending 4e so consistently without even having played it make you even more of a fanboy?

Originally Posted by me

I don't see how not being able to do something more than once per encounter, no matter what, is empowering, "narratively" or otherwise.
Gamist? Artificial? sure. But the abillity to "decide when the opportunity arises" once per encounter is certainly not more empowering than at will attacks in previous edititions. In the end, the dice still decide whether a power works.

And even if you consider the "miss effects" as narrative control, I'm of the mind that dms should control the world and players their characters. It makes things clearer and immersion easier.

Originally Posted by Amy Kou'ai

I wouldn't call it "empowerment", I'd call it "control." Basically the ordinary order of operations is inverted -- rather than narrative pre-conditions allowing a maneuver to occur, the maneuver itself creates its own narrative pre-conditions. In terms of who has a hand in how the narrative actively plays out, 4E powers tilt control toward the players -- not because of any particular notion that players can change narrative on a whim, but because their interfaces to the world have narrative-changing abilities built into them.

Even if you call it control, it's still less control than at will attacks in other editions. But I get the narrative shift... and I hate it. It breaks my sense of immersion. When the game begins, I like elements external to the PCs to be under the DM's control or left to chance.

Anyway, I am pretty sure this so called narrative control is more a consequence or justification of purely gamist considerations (balance, preventing players from abusing possibly broken powers), than intentional design.

Originally Posted by FireLance

The one that I find works best for me is:

"Whew, that was tiring, and I think overexerted/strained [specific muscle X]. I'm going to have to rest five minutes/six hours before I can do that again."

I think we've discussed this before but I find this "specific muscle strain" explanation terribly contrived.