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[KarinsDad]

Originally Posted by Goumindong

The rules state that the monsters know the effects of abilites imposed upon it. It does not state that the monster knows your power set that you have just because they could possibly trigger one of those powers or abilities.

So, it is your contention that WotC intended CC to be a "gotcha" ability instead of a sticky ability.

PC Fighter: "HA HA monster. Gotcha. Didn't see that coming."

How does this class ability actually make the Fighter sticky with your interpretation? Your interpretation means that the Fighter does more damage, not that he defends others better. He becomes more of a Striker and less of a Defender.

I totally understand where you are coming from with regard to CC giving the Fighter the ability to do the attack. It's just that powers and conditions do that.

Let's take Combat Advantage which is an attack modifier, not a power or condition.

Is it your claim that the monster does not KNOW that the PC has Combat Advantage against it since CA gives the +2 bonus to the PC?

Combat advantage represents a situation in which the defender can’t give full attention to defense.

The monster does not know that it is in a defensively bad situation? If CA is granted to a PC with a power, the monster does not know that the PC has CA against the monster?


Your interpretation makes the Fighter non-sticky and instead makes him stealthily vengeful. Being -2 to hit squishier defense targets becomes a no brainer for the monster and then opps, didn't see that coming.

That just does not make sense based on the WotC design philosophy for a defender.


Put another way, the effect on the monster is not that it is marked. It's that it is Combat Challenged. The Fighter is NOT marking the creature, he is Combat Challenging the creature. And the creature knows that the Fighter is doing this because of the rule of it having exact knowledge of what is happening to it because CC is being added to the power. It is being challenged. Not marked.


With my interpretation, if the monster refuses to shift because it doesn't want to be hit, that means Combat Challenge is working as intended. The Fighter is holding the monster there and protecting his fellow PCs.

With your interpretation, it means that Combat Challenge is working as intended to punish those around him. Not to be sticky, to be vengeful. And, it forces the DM to come up with an adjudication on when in the combat each foe starts to figure it out. The DM has to be thinking about which game rules are affected by this and which are not. It's vastly simpler to just run them all the same way.


So, the advantages of my interpretation:

1) It's consistent with other powers like Divine Challenge.
2) It's easy to remember because they all work the same (e.g. no warpriest's challenge different from some other ability or power)
3) It follows the WotC design goal of making fighters sticky.
4) One does not need to be a rules lawyer to figure out the difference for each and every case. The game need not slow up as the players talk out whether Combat Advantage is known by the monster or not.
5) The DM does not have to adjudicate when and if the monsters finally figure it out.

Advantages of your interpretation:

Are there any?

Bottom line for your interpretation:

The fighter's not really sticky. He's just a guy that gets lots of extra attacks.