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[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Hawken

The only name there I recognize is Yo Yo Ma. And I'd have to say he's further along than just being a 5th level Bard (or even Expert). If these guys are at the top of their field, best in the world, they would be pushing 20th level, if not already epic!

Also, considering that it takes years for even prodigies to master a single instrument, I don't see a 20th level bard being a master of more than maybe two or three instruments. It just isn't feasible. Going out and killing monsters, stealing treasure, plane hopping, all that stuff doesn't make one a better singer or story-teller.

Yeah. It's like gaining classes in general - you can either be really good at one or two, or have fewer levels in several classes, but you can't gain lots of levels in lots of classes.

Kerrick, I kind of like your ideas for proficiency levels, but at the same time, why bother? On your Decipher Script thing, proficiency level doesn't mean anything special--or at least, that's how it read to me. If you're the lowest rank, you can still translate something multiple ranks above you, it just takes longer to do so. What's the incentive beyond just getting better die rolls (or just getting magic items that give better modifiers), just to speed up the time it takes?

Ohhh... I forgot to put in a penalty for attempting to read something that's above your proficiency level. That would help a lot, I think. It IS possible to translate something above your level, given time; like I said, I can read some Spanish, and can sometimes get the gist of something I read (or even understand it entirely), and sometimes I just say "Duh... what?"

If you're going to have levels, there has to be things levels can do, things they can't. You listed what levels can do, but not what they can't. If someone has only proficient level in a language, how exactly are they going to be able to translate, muchless understand, something written at a more erudite level? Meaning, if someone has a Jeff Foxworthy-level of understanding of a language, how is just taking a little more time (a few extra minutes per page) going to allow them to understand Sartre or Confucious level writings?

Some codes take years, decades or even centuries to break, and that's after being worked on by experts.

I just read an article about a friend of Thomas Jefferson's who wrote a code into a letter he sent to Tom; an expert recently cracked it, 200 years later, with the aid of a computer. I should split off the code rules into a separate section, or at least rule that you can't attempt to crack a code unless you're fluent in the language (that's why it takes them so long - no one speaks the language anymore).

If you want to do proficiency levels, how about like this:

It's a workable system. I'm pretty burned out on design right now, but I might look at it more seriously later.

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

You appear to be suffering from level inflation, a common disease

There is an oft-quoted article by a game designer which shows that Einstein (unarguably one of the greatest, if not the greatest, physicists ever) can believably be written as a 5th level character. Analysis of the various athletics skills shows that Olympic-grade athletes are no higher than 6th-7th level. Even the heroes of Tolkein's LotR can be believably written as between 5th-8th level.

More like over-quoted. That article inevitably gets trotted out during discussions like this. Here's my rebuttal (one that's been used on me a few times): You can't compare the real world to D&D. By the RAW, a person can't run a marathon at all, let alone in 4 hours (which is the average time for a marathon runner). It might be reasonable to assume that Olympic athletes are 6th-7th level, since they focus solely on one or two things (Michael Phelps, for example, has max ranks in Swim, Skill Focus (swim), Endurance, and maybe Rapid Swimmer, which gives him greater swim speed), but this would make any D&D PC over 10th level a near-demigod. I consider that concept absurd, but then, I've been searching for a way to scale back power so that a PC can't achieve superhuman feats before 20th level.