Completed 4e Druid (Updated 7/11, New Items; More Versatile)

[King-Panda]

Thanks for the feedback. I have a few follow up questions, and a few new ones after reading ahead in the powers.

Assuming you have a strength of 22-23 at 11th level, You would hit on 17 (yes to prof bonus) and deal 1d6 + 11 damage with a basic attack in offensive form with +2d6 Sneak attack when you have combat advantage. X[W] = your short sword damage.

I'm gonna figure out the math here, because I don't think you quite answered my wep. prof. question. I have 21 Str, and a +3 Shortsword at level 11. So that's +5 from half level, +5 from Strength, +3 from enhancement mod, and +3 from Wep. Prof. bonus, for a total of +16, which works out with your +17 math from 22/23 Str. Am I correct in thinking the Wep. Prof. bonus comes from the shortsword? In that case,
if I am not wielding a weapon and I wildshape into offensive form, will I have no wep. prof. modifier? I'm basically asking if druids get an unarmed/natural wep. prof. modifier as a class feature or something.

As for damage, you list 1d6 + 11 for a basic attack. 1d6 (Shortsword) + 5 (21 str) + 2 (Off. Focus) + 3 (Enh. mod) = 1d6+10, in line with your 22 str 1d6+11. Is this correct?

You can assume Regular Defensive or Offensive form as a move action at-will from any form you're already in. When you get wild shape: Magic, You can enter Wild shape as a minor action once per encounter from any form you're already in and still use item powers. This is true for any wild shape power, feat or otherwise.

So once I activate Wildshape, I can change to Defensive, Offensive, and normal non-shaped form as a move action for the rest of the encounter? And if I take Wild Shape: Magic, on top of the normal rule listed above, I can activate wildshape as a minor action once per encounter (superceding the previous normal wildshape, and refreshing the 5 min duration if out of combat), change to and fro as listed above, but can use item powers while WS:M is active?

The line "This is true for any wild shape power, feat or otherwise." Is throwing me off. Is it saying that "You can assume Regular Defensive or Offensive form as a move action at-will from any form you're already in" is true at all times? I assume I can only combine wild shape: magic with another stance like "Wild shape: large" or "Wild shape: elemental" once I have "Wild shape:Chimera".

If I'm playing a race different than medium-sized, do my wildshapes default to medium size?"

"yes, but you still cannot wield a two-handed weapon and get no bonus from versatile weapons since your normal form doesn't. All items function in wild shape as they would normally for your character (not to sound redundant, it's just something I've seen done when others write faqs and it helps if you glance over some parts to repeat some information).

(No worries about the redundancy, it's best to spell it out in full when answering questions). It seems you are assuming I am small size from talking about 2H and versatile weapons. Even though I am, I was wondering about large sized (and bigger) creatures as well. Also, I assume from this a bugbear (for example) would still get their oversized weapon racial feature while wildshaping (ex. wielding a large greataxe and dealing 2d6 base damage)?

Most of the wild powers have a range of "Melee Touch". I assume this means any creature within reach, correct?

Indeed, per the PHB (i think, could be DMG); keep in mind a reach weapon lets you become an animal with really long arms (like a gorilla)

So you're saying If I wield a reach weapon while I am wildshaped, I will use the normal reach weapon rules listed on page 217 of the PHB? If I am in large form with a reach weapon, will I have 15 ft. reach?


About tree shape: thanks for the extra info. It didn't answer all my questions, but without that extra info the power is unusable. Reverting out of tree form because someone beats your stealth check makes my mind boggle. :P


On pg 55 of the PHB, it states stance powers last until you use another stance power. All I'm getting at with this is that even though stoneskin and hummingbird strike say they work with wild shape, it can easily be seen as a contradiction. If you update this again, perhaps you could change the line to read something like "This stance does not override a wild shape stance, and can be used while wild shaped"?

How I'm understanding Dire Pounce: Target a creature, and charge them. If you hit, Do normal charge damage, and then roll a secondary attack of str +2 vs ref, and deal an extra 2[W] + str and knock them prone if you hit with this secondary attack. For the rest of the encounter, if you charge and hit a target, the save or are knocked prone. Would a dwarf get two saves vs this attack (from racial free save vs prone)?

Wild Shape:Elemental grants resist cold, fire, lightning or thunder. Assuming you choose the type when the power is used, is there any way to change it after you have chosen it?

With Wild Shape:Chimera, it states you can attack one or two creatures with 2 At-will wild attacks. Does this mean you can attack 1 creature twice, or attack two creatures twice (for a total of four attacks)? By stating you can "maintain two additional stances", do you have to "spend" those powers' action cost to activate this (ex. Use Chimera as a minor action, and then spend two more minor actions to activate elemental and plant)? If you don't have to use actions to make use of these two extra stances, are they still "spent" and unusable until a short/extended rest, respectively?

Travel Form feat: It seems to be stating you can choose a different special movement form from the list each time you wildshape. However, after the list, it says you have to take the feat multiple times to choose a new special movement mode from the list. How does this work? How does this power interact with the level 16 utility WS: flight?

Thanks again for all the help, I'm getting pretty psyched about playing this class.

[malcolm_n]

Ignore double post

[malcolm_n]

Alright, I read over your druid, here's my take.

review of zip druid

A lot of the rewording you've done makes it a tad too powerful in any given form. Nature's breath, for example, is leagues better than Over Heat because over heat is a static +2 damage if you hit last round, not growing.

Acrobatics as a known skill detracts from the druid's flavor as a possible defender and really has a tacked-on feel.

Rites focus having the orb implement mastery is a bit powerful compared to the other two.

Implement Mastery for a druid puts it over the power for a hybrid, considering it lets you act as a wizard in addition to rogue and fighter as opposed to instead of.

Restricting your players to grunting kinda kills the feeling. It could be assumed that, while you lose the ability to speak itself, you're smart enough to convey the same. Alternatively, I would say it's balanced enough to let you speak, since verbal components of spells are a thing of the past. Just say you don't completely change your vocal cords.

Why allow opportunity attacks against a druid changing form? It hinders a key aspect of being able to change form.

Primal Concentration is too stat intensive

Feral leap is Charge with knockback 1 square; it's okay, but unnecessary.

Grasping roots - Again, very powerful for at-will

Kick is nice.

Raking talons is too powerful for at-will

Quick retreat is more powerful than the similar rogue at-will

Winter's heart is good without the sustain minor. Remember, you can sustain it every round if you want. as written, better off at level 3.

Healing wave makes no sense with the ability compared to the flavor text, name and ability. The power itself isn't bad, but out of flavor for the defender/striker hybrid. It's more leader, which isn't bad, but should stay an exception rather than a rule if you push this to 30.

Sheath of thorns is okay, but suffers the same problem as a power i wrote did before. End of encounter wisdom damage to attackers if powerful for level 1; consider moving to 5.

Brother wolf - at 24th level, you have a wolf standing around doing nothing each round. Also, a little complicated for level 1

As with anything, it has potential; and with time can likely be balanced out (it's taken my druid since may to get this far). The biggest tip I can give you is to compare the given power you make with a class it's going to be viewed as. For defender, I went with fighter/paladin. For Striker, I went solely rogue for wild-shape and fey warlock for casting with a splash of wizard (mostly at daily and always at 1 step down; like 15 becomes 19). Most of the powers you have so far would be okay for a single role character at one step higher; but if you want to keep your druid a hybrid (ie viable in any form), you'll have to do some shifting in balance.

Hope this helps.

[malcolm_n]

Always happy to help with rules clarification.

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by King-Panda

Thanks for the feedback. I have a few follow up questions, and a few new ones after reading ahead in the powers.

I'm gonna figure out the math here, because I don't think you quite answered my wep. prof. question. I have 21 Str, and a +3 Shortsword at level 11. So that's +5 from half level, +5 from Strength, +3 from enhancement mod, and +3 from Wep. Prof. bonus, for a total of +16, which works out with your +17 math from 22/23 Str. Am I correct in thinking the Wep. Prof. bonus comes from the shortsword? In that case,
if I am not wielding a weapon and I wildshape into offensive form, will I have no wep. prof. modifier? I'm basically asking if druids get an unarmed/natural wep. prof. modifier as a class feature or something.

As for damage, you list 1d6 + 11 for a basic attack. 1d6 (Shortsword) + 5 (21 str) + 2 (Off. Focus) + 3 (Enh. mod) = 1d6+10, in line with your 22 str 1d6+11. Is this correct?

all of the above is correct. You get the weapon proficiency of the weapon you use while in wild shape.

Originally Posted by King-Panda

So once I activate Wildshape, I can change to Defensive, Offensive, and normal non-shaped form as a move action for the rest of the encounter? And if I take Wild Shape: Magic, on top of the normal rule listed above, I can activate wildshape as a minor action once per encounter (superceding the previous normal wildshape, and refreshing the 5 min duration if out of combat), change to and fro as listed above, but can use item powers while WS:M is active?

I think you have an older copy. The base forms (def and off) are at-will now. Any time, anywhere, you can become an animal. The special forms you take, like WS:M allow you to shift as a minor action instead. Again, you can shift from any form (like changing stances for a fighter).

Originally Posted by King-Panda

The line "This is true for any wild shape power, feat or otherwise." Is throwing me off. Is it saying that "You can assume Regular Defensive or Offensive form as a move action at-will from any form you're already in" is true at all times? I assume I can only combine wild shape: magic with another stance like "Wild shape: large" or "Wild shape: elemental" once I have "Wild shape:Chimera".

It was just to say that no matter what wild shape stance you use (besides the base), you do it as a minor action from any form you are currently in. If you are in Offensive form and activate Wild shape magic, you can choose as a minor action to stay in offensive form or change to defensive form. That choice is your new stance, and if you change it, you lose the benefits of Wild Shape: Magic.

Originally Posted by King-Panda

(No worries about the redundancy, it's best to spell it out in full when answering questions). It seems you are assuming I am small size from talking about 2H and versatile weapons. Even though I am, I was wondering about large sized (and bigger) creatures as well. Also, I assume from this a bugbear (for example) would still get their oversized weapon racial feature while wildshaping (ex. wielding a large greataxe and dealing 2d6 base damage)?

Regardless of your size, you're medium when you wild shape (sans the feat). With a reach weapon, you apply its reach as you would for your current size while in wild shape. If a large creature gets reach 15 with such a weapon, you would to so long as you're in Large Form.
Bugbears get oversized weapon? That's really cool; I can't believe I looked over it. Yes, he would apply whatever die of damage his weapon does as normal because of his racial ability. The same would be true for monkey grip if/when they make it a feat again.

Originally Posted by King-Panda

So you're saying If I wield a reach weapon while I am wildshaped, I will use the normal reach weapon rules listed on page 217 of the PHB? If I am in large form with a reach weapon, will I have 15 ft. reach?

See above, I answered it thinking it was part of that question.

Originally Posted by King-Panda

About tree shape: thanks for the extra info. It didn't answer all my questions, but without that extra info the power is unusable. Reverting out of tree form because someone beats your stealth check makes my mind boggle. :P

hehe, Them beating your stealth is them realizing there' s a tree in the middle of nowhere, you making some kind of a non-treelike move or action like bending over, sneezing, etc. Again, it's just the mechanical representation of changing into something you're not as a means to hide or otherwise trick others into not thinking you're there.

Originally Posted by King-Panda

On pg 55 of the PHB, it states stance powers last until you use another stance power. All I'm getting at with this is that even though stoneskin and hummingbird strike say they work with wild shape, it can easily be seen as a contradiction. If you update this again, perhaps you could change the line to read something like "This stance does not override a wild shape stance, and can be used while wild shaped"?

That's the magic of an exceptions based rules system. There is a hard and fast rule about stances; and Hummingbird strike and stoneskin break that rule by simply saying you can still use them while you're in wild shape form. I could add the wording for easier read; and I probably will, but as we all get more familiar with the new system, you'll find there are a lot of basic rules broken by classes all the time.

Originally Posted by King-Panda

How I'm understanding Dire Pounce: Target a creature, and charge them. If you hit, Do normal charge damage, and then roll a secondary attack of str +2 vs ref, and deal an extra 2[W] + str and knock them prone if you hit with this secondary attack. For the rest of the encounter, if you charge and hit a target, the save or are knocked prone. Would a dwarf get two saves vs this attack (from racial free save vs prone)?

The dwarf only has to make one save because he is only affected by knockdown once. The inclusion of knocked prone on the secondary attack is redundant.

Originally Posted by King-Panda

Wild Shape:Elemental grants resist cold, fire, lightning or thunder. Assuming you choose the type when the power is used, is there any way to change it after you have chosen it?

Nope, once per encounter, pick a resistance. That's your element until you rest for 5 minutes. But, you can stay in elemental form for 5 minutes (if I read stances correctly, you can always be in a stance, if i'm wrong, ignore this part), enter combat and use the power again to change the element. If you do, you lose the element you had before.

Originally Posted by King-Panda

With Wild Shape:Chimera, it states you can attack one or two creatures with 2 At-will wild attacks. Does this mean you can attack 1 creature twice, or attack two creatures twice (for a total of four attacks)? By stating you can "maintain two additional stances", do you have to "spend" those powers' action cost to activate this (ex. Use Chimera as a minor action, and then spend two more minor actions to activate elemental and plant)? If you don't have to use actions to make use of these two extra stances, are they still "spent" and unusable until a short/extended rest, respectively?

Make 2 attacks. Each attack can target a different creature, but doesn't have to. This breaks the stance rule again. Normally, you only get one stance; period. Chimera says you now get 3 stances at a time. Because this is a stance itself, pick two others and use them. Chimera already counts as both defensive and offensive at the same time, so I suggest using (for example) WS: M and Stone Skin.

Originally Posted by King-Panda

Travel Form feat: It seems to be stating you can choose a different special movement form from the list each time you wildshape. However, after the list, it says you have to take the feat multiple times to choose a new special movement mode from the list. How does this work? How does this power interact with the level 16 utility WS: flight?

Thanks again for all the help, I'm getting pretty psyched about playing this class.

Thank you for catching that. I meant it to be that you could only be in one at a time, but you have to take the feat multiple times to have access to this feat. It should read:
______________
Choose one of the following forms. When you wild shape, you gain that movement mode. You can take this multiple times for different forms, but can only use one at a time.

[eloquentaction]

Thanks for your quick reply. I made some changes and have some additional questions.

If you have time, please check the following:

Spoiler:

A lot of the rewording you've done makes it a tad too powerful in any given form. Nature's

breath, for example, is leagues better than Over Heat because over heat is a static +2 damage if you

hit last round, not growing.

OK. Fair enough. What about reducing the bonus to +1, cumulative? I think the idea of the spell is

to steam them to death; I would think it would get worse the longer they were in it.

Acrobatics as a known skill detracts from the druid's flavor as a possible defender and really

has a tacked-on feel.

At one point, I was thinking the Attack form would have a lot of Rogue skills, so I had Acrobatics in

here. I'll take it out.

Rites focus having the orb implement mastery is a bit powerful compared to the other two.

As I read your original post, I noticed that Defensive form seemed to have much more in the way of

advantages than the other two. So I attempted to add new At-Wills for both Attack form and for Rites

Mastery. I'm not sure where you got orb implement mastery? The implements I added were; Holly, Choker

and Defensive Staff - with the defensive staff being verbatim from the Wizard with the addition that a

Rites Master can use their staff to increase their Touch range by 1.

Implement Mastery for a druid puts it over the power for a hybrid, considering it lets you act

as a wizard in addition to rogue and fighter as opposed to instead of.

You've got three different forms here, each with 3 different sets of abilities and with the druid

specializing in one of the forms. If you're going to have the ability to specialize in the

'wizard-like' form, it seems to me they shouldn't be 'gimped' and should be a viable alternative. This

was (by the way) the reason I made shapeshifting provoke attacks of opportunity. So the druid couldn't

just flick in and out of whatever shape they wanted at the drop of a hat with no penalties. Later on,

they would get the ability to drop this to a minor action (in line with your skills) with no combat

advantage, then finally to shift as a free action with no attacks of opportunity.

Restricting your players to grunting kinda kills the feeling. It could be assumed that, while

you lose the ability to speak itself, you're smart enough to convey the same. Alternatively, I would

say it's balanced enough to let you speak, since verbal components of spells are a thing of the past.

Just say you don't completely change your vocal cords.

True enough. I suppose I could change this to say the vocal chords and eyes remained the same with

perhaps some special effects like it's deeper, etc.

Why allow opportunity attacks against a druid changing form? It hinders a key aspect of being

able to change form.

See notes, above.

Primal Concentration is too stat intensive

Thanks for your opinion. ;-) Any ideas on how to change it and give similar results?

Feral leap is Charge with knockback 1 square; it's okay, but unnecessary.

Re-read it. Feral Leap gives a Push 1 AND a bonus to attack on the next attack over and above Charge's

normal +1.

Grasping roots - Again, very powerful for at-will

Kick is nice.

Grasping roots was my attempt to work in a 'root' effect. Perhaps change immobolize to 'slow'?

Raking talons is too powerful for at-will

Raking Talons is your RAKE ability verbatim.

Quick retreat is more powerful than the similar rogue at-will

Noted. I'll change it to the same as Deft Strike. 2 squares movement AFTER the attack.

Winter's heart is good without the sustain minor. Remember, you can sustain it every round if

you want. as written, better off at level 3.

It's an encounter based spell. Not an at-will. It can't be sustained every round unless it has a

Sustain clause in the power. Which is why I added it. It's the same as your CHILL power, but I

thought the lack of a sustain was actually an oversight on your part. I added the Special as a

special-effect.

Healing wave makes no sense with the ability compared to the flavor text, name and ability. The

power itself isn't bad, but out of flavor for the defender/striker hybrid. It's more leader, which

isn't bad, but should stay an exception rather than a rule if you push this to 30.

Here's where you and I have some differences. It's my belief that the druid should have at least SOME

healing abilities. Obviously these abilities should not be accessible when the druid is shapeshifted,

so I put it in as a humanoid spell. I also tried to structure it as a Striker / Controller type spell

to give some variety and / or versatility to the Rites Master. The flavor text is just wording, I'd

appreciate it if you could suggest some better wording - I'll try and come up with some ideas as well.

In the meantime, I think I'll drop it down to an area burst 1 within 10 and keep the same effects.

Sheath of thorns is okay, but suffers the same problem as a power i wrote did before. End of

encounter wisdom damage to attackers if powerful for level 1; consider moving to 5.

Duly noted. Perhaps a +1 power bonus to AC till the end of encounter?

[malcolm_n]

To be honest, I'd rather answer your questions in your own thread so that I don't start confusing anybody keeping up with this one. That said, I'll review it some more once you have a few levels to run with; just try to keep the above in mind.

[eloquentaction]

Originally Posted by malcolm_n

To be honest, I'd rather answer your questions in your own thread so that I don't start confusing anybody keeping up with this one. That said, I'll review it some more once you have a few levels to run with; just try to keep the above in mind.

Oh, absolutely.

I wasn't, by any means, trying to take credit for your good work.

I'll throw it out onto my website (see link in my sig).

I was planning on throwing the rest of the levels into that format here over the next week or so.

Right now, though, I'm trying to make modifications to put all the magic items and artifacts in the PHB into my Power Card program. I'm also thinking of a stand-alone program that let's you create your own magic item. Fun stuff!

-- Hirahito

[malcolm_n]

Those all sound cool. I'll check out the site today some time.

[eloquentaction]

Originally Posted by malcolm_n

Those all sound cool. I'll check out the site today some time.

Malcolm -

New version's on my web site: Hirahitos_4e

Here's a link to the new ENWorld thread: ENworld Hirahito Druid

-- Hirahito

[malcolm_n]

Bump.

Been on Vacation; Back on Wednesday, Will post something