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I've only read a little bit so far, but I love what I've seen. I have one balance suggestion:
Granting extra saving throws doesn't seem to be treated as a minor effect by the game in general (for instance, see the Cleric 2 utility Divine Aid). Either the damaging or saving throw effect of Warning Yell could use to be toned down. I would either make the damage only Cha (no 1d8) or change the granted saving throw into a bonus to the next save.
I'm trying to download it but I keep getting corrupted files...
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Originally Posted by saric
My original concept was to mirror the 3.5 version of maintaining a song as say a minor action, etc etc. The problem arose that if you could grant a decent bonus to attack/damage or whatever every encounter all the time as long as you sustain it, why would you not do this every single fight?
Maybe that's the problem then, "sustain minor" would obviously be too broken, as you could effectively sing/play as you do other stuff, but if it had a "sustain standard" you would have to basicly sacrifice your main action in a given turn to maintain the effect. I know that this would lead to some sort of "passive" playing like in 3E, and that's probably not where they tried to get in 4E...
I've only read a little bit so far, but I love what I've seen. I have one balance suggestion:
Granting extra saving throws doesn't seem to be treated as a minor effect by the game in general (for instance, see the Cleric 2 utility Divine Aid). Either the damaging or saving throw effect of Warning Yell could use to be toned down. I would either make the damage only Cha (no 1d8) or change the granted saving throw into a bonus to the next save.
See the at will Cleric power called "sacred flame" p63. The target gets an option between gaining temp hit points or a saving throw. Thus, the bard power does a little bit more damage than the cleric, but is not as versatile. If you think its unbalanced go strangle a cleric first.
See the at will Cleric power called "sacred flame" p63. The target gets an option between gaining temp hit points or a saving throw. Thus, the bard power does a little bit more damage than the cleric, but is not as versatile. If you think its unbalanced go strangle a cleric first.
My original concept was to mirror the 3.5 version of maintaining a song as say a minor action, etc etc. The problem arose that if you could grant a decent bonus to attack/damage or whatever every encounter all the time as long as you sustain it, why would you not do this every single fight?
As a Bard player, I *DO* perform every single combat. That's my schtick. A 3e Bard has one use per level, which after the first level or so, basically means every encounter every day. Not only that, but I'm optimized with feat and spell to boost by +3/+3 at lower level (when we go to 8th level, I'll be +4/+4, and I don't use a musical instrument that might help this.)
That's really the only thing I don't like, that it's "till the end of my next turn", or only one round. That's a serious steep reduction from what it is now. Making it an Encounter power, lasting until the end of the encounter, isn't a huge thing, because currently, one round of standard action perform lasts 6 rounds (current + 5). Essentially a minor to sustain if I want it to last longer than 6 rounds. So far, I've only had this be an issue in two combats because I didn't sustain it (I just performed again!)
Of course, that makes the Inspirational Boost power a bit problematic, although in it's current form, if it stacks with the class feature, it's a +3 boost for one round, which you could do in every combat. That would be my "rules question". Obviously as written now, you can't do both, but if Inspire becomes 'full-encounter', which I think it should, then it becomes an issue. (Though not much of one for me given that I already boost for +3/+3 for the full combat, and this is a reduction in my ability to do that and requires standard actions over two different rounds.)
__________________ 'Fair' is a Human Ideological Concept.
Perception, the bastard child of Subjective Reality.
"Spinning is so much cooler than not spinning. I'm the general and I want it to spin." - Stargate Episode #200
The only other issue I would have at this point, not having made extensive study of the material but more of a perusal, would be "Implement". My Bard is an Orator. While I have acquired two masterwork musical instruments and invested skill points in their use, I have never used them in combat. My character view is the fireside storyteller, the loremaster, the inspiring leader, the speechifier who rallies the troops. NOT a Minstrel, Juggler or Fool. As such, I really have no use for an Implement.
__________________ 'Fair' is a Human Ideological Concept.
Perception, the bastard child of Subjective Reality.
"Spinning is so much cooler than not spinning. I'm the general and I want it to spin." - Stargate Episode #200
Fireside storytellers often had a talking stick though. You could call it flavor to have a singing/storytelling Bard use a Rod as an implement and create some magic Rods that enhance talking (like a microphone)
As a Bard player, I *DO* perform every single combat. That's my schtick. A 3e Bard has one use per level, which after the first level or so, basically means every encounter every day. Not only that, but I'm optimized with feat and spell to boost by +3/+3 at lower level (when we go to 8th level, I'll be +4/+4, and I don't use a musical instrument that might help this.)
Clerics could turn undead more than once per encounter too in 3.5. But not anymore. Bardic music is supposed to not be as powerful as channel divinity powers. A bard can have 90 encounters and use bardic music each time as long as he had 5 mins to rest in between battles.
Considering most of the powers are songs or verses, you are performing every encounter with every power you use. Just not always doing bardic music over and over and over again.
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Originally Posted by Chimera
That's really the only thing I don't like, that it's "till the end of my next turn", or only one round. That's a serious steep reduction from what it is now. Making it an Encounter power, lasting until the end of the encounter, isn't a huge thing, because currently, one round of standard action perform lasts 6 rounds (current + 5). Essentially a minor to sustain if I want it to last longer than 6 rounds. So far, I've only had this be an issue in two combats because I didn't sustain it (I just performed again!)
This isn't 3rd edition. 4th edition has a different design philosophy and I tried to keep that essence, while carrying over some of the flavor. By allowing unlimited sustains for the powers as written now, it is way too good for a class feature or even other encounter powers compared to the other classes. Thus either the bonuses would have to change or the number of targets.
The pdf's inspirational boost is a daily power that lasts the encounter and it is a power bonus so it does not stack with inspire competence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera
The only other issue I would have at this point, not having made extensive study of the material but more of a perusal, would be "Implement". My Bard is an Orator. While I have acquired two masterwork musical instruments and invested skill points in their use, I have never used them in combat. My character view is the fireside storyteller, the loremaster, the inspiring leader, the speechifier who rallies the troops. NOT a Minstrel, Juggler or Fool. As such, I really have no use for an Implement.
Its a mistake in the wording that I put in the description. Bardic instruments should work just like a cleric's holy symbol, which means you don't have to be actually wielding it to gain its benefit. You can just wear your harp on your back while giving your inspiring speech or sing your song without an instrument and you'd still get the bonus. The reason the implement exists is to give you a bonus to keep up with the power curve of the game and other classes. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to "enchant my voice."
As another suggestion, you could probably have a small scroll, book, pamphlet or yelling cone which could contain or amplify your speeches and you could consider that to be your bardic instrument. Otherwise, it would be called a "musical" instrument.
I hope this clarifies things a little bit.
Last edited by saric; 22nd June 2008 at 06:22 PM..
Clerics could turn undead more than once per encounter too in 3.5. But not anymore.
Doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of what you are responding to. I have no issues with it being an encounter power, as long as it lasts the length of the encounter. You're reducing it to one round with a very small bonus. This is taking the nerf bat to something that has never been a problem. The board has never been flooded with threads about how overpowering bardic music is.
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Bardic music is supposed to not be as powerful as channel divinity powers.
Cite please? 4e seems to be more about balance between the classes, not the 3e philosophy of making Clerics more powerful than any other class because people don't want to play them. Besides, it's not more powerful, it's fulfulling the Bard's usual role, which is not the Cleric's usual role. (I can probably count on one hand the times I've been the recipient of the Bless spell over the last 20 years and a dozen gaming groups.)
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By allowing unlimited sustains for the powers as written now, it is way too good for a class feature or even other encounter powers compared to the other classes. Thus either the bonuses would have to change or the number of targets.
Given that it's Close Burst 5 and the Bard's primary combat power/role, I disagree.
Though I would be willing to drop the Inspirational Boost daily power for something else.
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Its a mistake in the wording that I put in the description. Bardic instruments should work just like a cleric's holy symbol, which means you don't have to be actually wielding it to gain its benefit. You can just wear your harp on your back while giving your inspiring speech or sing your song without an instrument and you'd still get the bonus. The reason the implement exists is to give you a bonus to keep up with the power curve of the game and other classes.
Again, not every Bard is a musician. They can be actors, mimes, jugglers, storytellers, information gatherers. The whole 'Instrument' thing is an artifact of assuming they must be minstrels.
Henry V:He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbors,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian':
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say, 'These wounds I had on Saint Crispians day.'
Lackey: Hold on, where's his bloody Implement? Bugger all, I'm not being inspired unless e's got an 'orn or some'in.
__________________ 'Fair' is a Human Ideological Concept.
Perception, the bastard child of Subjective Reality.
"Spinning is so much cooler than not spinning. I'm the general and I want it to spin." - Stargate Episode #200
Last edited by Chimera; 22nd June 2008 at 06:50 PM..
As another suggestion, you could probably have a small scroll, book, pamphlet or yelling cone which could contain or amplify your speeches and you could consider that to be your bardic instrument. Otherwise, it would be called a "musical" instrument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera
Again, not every Bard is a musician. They can be actors, mimes, jugglers, storytellers, information gatherers. The whole 'Instrument' thing is an artifact of assuming they must be minstrels.
Well considering the fact that the two builds I made for the class are spellblade and the musician. I think it makes perfect sense. So unless you're suggesting to change the name to "entertainer" or suggesting a new build, you really aren't helping much.
Did you just miss that part of my post? A bardic instrument can be "anything" that is related to your performances. if the juggler wanted a bowling pin , single dagger (which would have to be enchanted separately) or an sack of tomatoes then yeah he would just have to have it in hand or worn somewhere on his body.
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Bardic music is supposed to not be as powerful as channel divinity powers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera
Cite please? 4e seems to be more about balance between the classes, not the 3e philosophy of making Clerics more powerful than any other class because people don't want to play them. Besides, it's not more powerful, it's fulfulling the Bard's usual role, which is not the Cleric's usual role. (I can probably count on one hand the times I've been the recipient of the Bless spell over the last 20 years and a dozen gaming groups.)
In 4th edition, clerics and warlords are leaders. I'm not sure if you read the class roles in the phb p16 ("Leaders inspire, heal and aid the other characters in an adventuring group.").
I made the bard into a leader, therefore the bard should essentially not be as powerful than a warlord or cleric who are also can accomplish the bard's same role. If the bard becomes more powerful, why on earth would anyone play a cleric/warlord when they wanted to be a leader?
Also in regards to bardic music, name one encounter power in 4th edition that increases in effectiveness at the higher levels, affects all allies in a burst, lasts all encounter in terms of its effect with the exclusion of temporary hit points,actual healing and pure damage. If you can find that power which you probably wont, make sure you can get it at level 1 cause thats when the bard "should" get it.
Lastly, bardic music in both forms (lasting all encounter and a single round) is still being playtested.
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Originally Posted by StephenHawking
Was sound burst supposed to be Str vs Fort?
No, its supposed to be Charisma vs Fortitude, added to the changes.
Last edited by saric; 23rd June 2008 at 02:12 AM..
In 4th edition, clerics and warlords are leaders. I'm not sure if you read the class roles in the phb p16 ("Leaders inspire, heal and aid the other characters in an adventuring group.").
I made the bard into a leader, therefore the bard should essentially not be as powerful than a warlord or cleric who are also can accomplish the bard's same role. If the bard becomes more powerful, why on earth would anyone play a cleric/warlord when they wanted to be a leader?
Bard should be Leaders, I would expect nothing less. However, you are incorrect in saying that they should NOT be as powerful as Clerics and Warlords. They should be exactly as powerful in different ways. Why would anyone want to play a Bard if they are specifically LESS powerful than Clerics and Warlords.
However, having looked over your class a bit more, I have the following suggestions or comments;
1> Inspire Courage should last for the entire encounter.
2> Inspire Competence is not available until 3rd level in 3e. I would suggest removing this from the Class Abilities and making it a Utility ability a few levels up the scale.
3> Healing is not available until 2nd level in 3e and given their very limited spellcasting and known number of spells, is a CHOICE made by a particular Bard. The only reason I took a healing spell at all was because of a Reserve Feat I got for free. Healing Hymn could be removed from the class ability list and made an Encounter or Utility.
To be sure, as a Leader class in 4e, they need some kind of healing ability, but as a 2nd level Utility(Encounter), it would be good.
4> Bards are much more limited spellcasters in 3e than other spellcasting classes. You are changing that significantly. I'm not sure whether or not this is good or bad, but it is different, especially in your granting more spell-like abilities at 1st level.
But all in all, don't take my comments as being harsh or negative. I think you did a great job on putting it together, and I thank you for doing so. I'm just a very interested player of a Bard PC whose campaign is waiting for a usable 4e Bard before we convert our campaign over, and as such, I have a vested interest in being able to do the sort of things my character has always done.
__________________ 'Fair' is a Human Ideological Concept.
Perception, the bastard child of Subjective Reality.
"Spinning is so much cooler than not spinning. I'm the general and I want it to spin." - Stargate Episode #200
Bard should be Leaders, I would expect nothing less. However, you are incorrect in saying that they should NOT be as powerful as Clerics and Warlords. They should be exactly as powerful in different ways. Why would anyone want to play a Bard if they are specifically LESS powerful than Clerics and Warlords.
However, having looked over your class a bit more, I have the following suggestions or comments;
1> Inspire Courage should last for the entire encounter.
2> Inspire Competence is not available until 3rd level in 3e. I would suggest removing this from the Class Abilities and making it a Utility ability a few levels up the scale.
3> Healing is not available until 2nd level in 3e and given their very limited spellcasting and known number of spells, is a CHOICE made by a particular Bard. The only reason I took a healing spell at all was because of a Reserve Feat I got for free. Healing Hymn could be removed from the class ability list and made an Encounter or Utility.
To be sure, as a Leader class in 4e, they need some kind of healing ability, but as a 2nd level Utility(Encounter), it would be good.
4> Bards are much more limited spellcasters in 3e than other spellcasting classes. You are changing that significantly. I'm not sure whether or not this is good or bad, but it is different, especially in your granting more spell-like abilities at 1st level.
But all in all, don't take my comments as being harsh or negative. I think you did a great job on putting it together, and I thank you for doing so. I'm just a very interested player of a Bard PC whose campaign is waiting for a usable 4e Bard before we convert our campaign over, and as such, I have a vested interest in being able to do the sort of things my character has always done.
Lol no its ok, I know where you're coming from. I usually always was the one to include bards in my campaigns because no one else wanted to try it out.
Now, I did use an incorrect statement by saying "as powerful" I meant in the context that they should be equal to in terms of power.
I think to be a leader in 4th they need to have the ability to heal from the start, its not a major deal and it makes them just as attractive.
Bardic music is still in the pipes, since I actually finally got some groups to play 4th edition. Inspire competence and the like are still being tested in different forms at the moment. Inspire competence is debatable and I'm considering making it into a feat also. But for the record, inspire competence was horrible in 3rd edition. It didn't scale at all and was useless for certain skills.
Here was my original concept for bardic music that I had when I first wrote the class. This is one that is being tested. Just have to see how it balances out at the higher levels. The other music was the same way in terms of sustain minor.
Inspire Courage (Bardic Song)
You play a song of bravery, and raise your allies morale.
Encounter * Arcane, Implement
Minor Action Ranged sight or heard
Target: all allies within range
Effect: gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls and defenses against fear effects until the end of your next turn.
the bonus increases to +2 at 11th level. and +3 at 21st level.
Sustain Minor: The effect persists until the end of your next turn, up till a maximum of 5 minutes.
Special: you can activate Healing Hymn and it sustains the song.
Either way, I appreciate the suggestions and feedback. I'll probably get to doing more work on it during this week.
Last edited by saric; 23rd June 2008 at 02:33 AM..
First I would give the Bard the proficiency with Rapier, since it is no stronger than a longsword but fit's really well for the class.
And second there is a problem with the music Instrument-Implement since most instruments need two hands, which is very hard to use if you want to use a weapon. In 3.X you could just sing or crack some jokes and have your hands free without any handicaps in spellcasting, but this doesn't work in 4E any more. Any Idea how to bypass that?
Your 3e bard sounds like he would be best in 4e as a Warlord. They are totally about inspiring people through oratory. (The one big problem you might have is that Warlords attack powers are purely melee, if your 3e bard was a ranged attacker.)
Also, if your 4e conversion is going to fill the Leader role (either as a Warlord or as saric's bard), he's going to have a healing class feature - Warlord's Inspiring Words or saric's Bard's Healing Hymn. That is just the way it is in 4e - for a Leader Bard to have the potential to be as good as a healer as a cleric or warlord, he has to have this feature. If you don't want your character to be heal focused, you can always make sure not to choose any of the other attack or utility powers that heal.
In general, I'd recommend that you try to let go of the notion that your 4e conversion carry over as many of the 3e bard features as closely as possible. (Note: I'm not trying to be a jerk telling you that you're having "wrong fun" or anything like that: this is advice honestly intended to increase your enjoyment of your character in 4e.) It's just that 4e is different enough that trying to carry over the 3e stuff too closely is very likely to lead to a broken character, in both "too gimped" and "too uber" senses. You can always change the flavor of things to match what you like; if you did decide to go with Warlord mechanics, there's no reason your character couldn't call himself a "bard" if he wanted, say that his "inspiring words" are often rhymed, and so on.
Your 3e bard sounds like he would be best in 4e as a Warlord.
I understand what you're saying, but I'm committed to being a Bard, because I'm the Leader/Social Skills/Knowledge guy. The Informational aspect of my character is a biggie. I was specifically asked to play a Bard by the GM to play that role in the party. I'm maxed out/Optimized for Diplomacy and have very high scores in the other social skills. Like I said earlier, my character IS a Loremaster/Storyteller/Orator/Leader.
Like I said, healing is a choice in 3e. You only ever get four known spells of any given level, and you can't cast very many spells per day. Trying to be a healing Bard is an exercise in futility. Frankly, my opinion is that 3e Bards should skip the healing spells and make use of their ability to use Wands of CLW.
I took Cure Moderate Wounds after getting a free reserve feat for accepting an affiliation with Onatar. I can't remember the name, but it's the one that allows unlimited 3hp x level of uncast healing spell as a standard action as long as the target is below 50% hp. So basically I can heal someone 6hp every round as long as they're below half (bloodied in 4e parlance). And I can do that all day, at least until everyone is at half HP. The other reason I took it was because at the time, our Cleric was missing sessions and we really needed the healing. I have NO ranks in Heal! My Bard doesn't see himself as a healer, he just views this as a special gift from Onatar that is available in emergencies.
Combat wise, my Bard sucks. I admit it, I accept it. My PC's optimization and ability is to make others shine. He's not really a warrior. Despite that, I tend to roll lucky and he has more 'kills' then some of the warriors in the group! So going Warlord is a strong change for the character. Too much of a change for my tastes.
That being said, I did offer to temporarily retire the character and play a 4e Warlord until such time as a working Bard is available. We're playing a War of the Burning Sky campaign, and my GM doesn't want to attempt to convert things until we can convert our characters within the same arch-type/character class. The other PC which is problematic at this time is a Summoner. Both classes come out next year in the PHB2, so unless he looks this over and wants to allow a conversion/playtest/mid-range solution, we'll wait.
__________________ 'Fair' is a Human Ideological Concept.
Perception, the bastard child of Subjective Reality.
"Spinning is so much cooler than not spinning. I'm the general and I want it to spin." - Stargate Episode #200
I see... well the knowledge aspect of the bard is not well captured by the Warlord class, it's true. I guess you could take a bunch of skill feats but that'd be a little bit weak. Depending on how you and your DM feel, you could take something away from the Warlord (some armor and weapon proficiencies?) in exchange for more knowledge and social skills. Still, that wouldn't really give you that "bardic knowledge" feel where the bard had some special unique lore abilities, and honestly I don't think saric's Bard's +2 to knowledges really does it either. It'll be interesting to see what the official 4e Bard has along these lines, if anything.
The good news is that healing is a choice in 4e, too. You can make a cleric or warlord that focuses entirely on combat or buffs with just that class feature giving you two heals per combat. The same should be true of the bard class. But in 4e at least if you do choose to be a healing bard, you should actually be able to be good at it.
Lol no its ok, I know where you're coming from. I usually always was the one to include bards in my campaigns because no one else wanted to try it out.
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