4e Fan Creations and House RulesWorking on variant powers? Statting up a PC race or your version of a monster? Creating or converting an adventure? Put it here!
For inhibiting strike, what's is the duration? It seems odd to have it last forever.
I was unaware of an ability named inhibiting strike for the bard. However, inhibiting song does not state when it ends. It should read:
"Deal damage equal to your Charisma modifier,
target takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to your Intelligence modifier on its next attack."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baumi
Wow, really well done!
Just two things:
First I would give the Bard the proficiency with Rapier, since it is no stronger than a longsword but fit's really well for the class.
And second there is a problem with the music Instrument-Implement since most instruments need two hands, which is very hard to use if you want to use a weapon. In 3.X you could just sing or crack some jokes and have your hands free without any handicaps in spellcasting, but this doesn't work in 4E any more. Any Idea how to bypass that?
Very true, bard's were proficient with rapiers as well. Added.
I implied earlier in the thread that bardic instruments work akin to a holy symbol, which just requires it to be worn or held (if desired). In addition, the instrument can range from a "musical" instrument to a book or whatever the bard deems as an instrument to inspire.
I'm going to be releasing a new pdf today with fixes and changes.
Last edited by saric; 24th June 2008 at 01:53 PM..
I notice, though, that your bard offers multiple powers that inflict the "restrained" condition. Now, I prefer "restrained" to "immobilized" in most cases myself, but there aren't many other powers that inflict it. Even grappling/grabbing doesn't any more. Just thought that might be a balance concern.
Likewise, your bard has many powers that grant a full additional second wind (healing surge plus brief defense boost) rather than just a surge. That too is unusual among the classes. Since healing surges are still expended, it's probably not a big deal, but I thought I should mention it.
Finally, your first two level 19 attack powers are really more utilities, it seems to me. I like them, but I'm not sure they're in the right place.
Just those few concerns, though. Otherwise, looks absolutely great!
This is an excellent class. I hope Wizard of the coast is watching since you just raised the bar for their own bard.
My only comment is that the first two sets of utility powers (Level 2 and 6) feel very combat oriented to me. I would add/replace a few powers for pure out of combat utilities. Maybe powers that help with the trickster/charmer aspect of the bard, bonus to bluff, power to convince someone for a few seconds of something very improbable, that sorts of things.
BTW for some reasons I cant access the PDF either.
I understand what you're saying, but I'm committed to being a Bard, because I'm the Leader/Social Skills/Knowledge guy. The Informational aspect of my character is a biggie. I was specifically asked to play a Bard by the GM to play that role in the party. I'm maxed out/Optimized for Diplomacy and have very high scores in the other social skills. Like I said earlier, my character IS a Loremaster/Storyteller/Orator/Leader.
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If you want that go Charisma/int warlord, maybe even human and add on knowledge skills as feats, pick up Jack of all trades too (+2 to all untrained skills) and it would fit with saric's suggestion
__________________ Ginnel
"Someone on the internet is wrong!"
Shabe on sharing loot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shabe
Of course you may be talking about all of the above in character where all the characters in the party count every single coin and keep track of it individually and all know the exact price of items, all can divide big numbers in their heads and all carry around a handy set of dice with them for when the roll off occurs, then of course you are fine, else well done you've taken some of the r out or rpg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginnel
If you want to create something different do it.
All elves are fat and prone to flatulence and their nickname is Gary.
Bang I've just changed my world do the same with yours.
Given the scale differences between 3e and 4e, a +3 attack that lasts all encounter, every encounter is just way too good... for one round, sure. Or make it stick at +1 and sustainable? Sure.
I notice, though, that your bard offers multiple powers that inflict the "restrained" condition. Now, I prefer "restrained" to "immobilized" in most cases myself, but there aren't many other powers that inflict it. Even grappling/grabbing doesn't any more. Just thought that might be a balance concern.
Likewise, your bard has many powers that grant a full additional second wind (healing surge plus brief defense boost) rather than just a surge. That too is unusual among the classes. Since healing surges are still expended, it's probably not a big deal, but I thought I should mention it.
Finally, your first two level 19 attack powers are really more utilities, it seems to me. I like them, but I'm not sure they're in the right place.
Just those few concerns, though. Otherwise, looks absolutely great!
Deadstop
I like the restrained condition it feels very bardish to me. The music is so good, the monsters are somewhat distracted by the song.
Actually the reason I chose to make second wind was to sometimes make the healing be a little different from the other classes.
Considering weapon of the gods cleric attack 5 is along the same lines very much like a utillity power. It also is still is under attack so I placed them in that category as well. Apparently anything that seems to do damage apparently falls under that category.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taralan
My only comment is that the first two sets of utility powers (Level 2 and 6) feel very combat oriented to me. I would add/replace a few powers for pure out of combat utilities. Maybe powers that help with the trickster/charmer aspect of the bard, bonus to bluff, power to convince someone for a few seconds of something very improbable, that sorts of things.
Inspire competence being a bardic music already does this and its a class feature if you choose it. Granted its a good idea, I'll see if I can fit it i when I run over the bard again.
First of all, well done! I am going to encourage my players in an upcoming game to try your bard. I will be glad to share our experiences.
I have a couple of questions:
Can you explain the justification for Inhibiting Song (page 4)? I would think it would need to do d6 or Weapon damage as well.
Would Tasha’s Hideous Laughter (page 5) be more viable if the save bonus was for a language difference rather than a racial difference. I can imagine that the power will be used most often on a member of another race. It would also give the bard advantages for learning other languages.
G’elsewhere (page 9) raises a lot of questions for me. Is the random direction determined with a d10? What if it puts the ally or object into difficult or hazardous terrain? What if it puts them into a wall or off a cliff? Is there any reason that it isn’t usable on enemies?
Does Haste (page 11) grant an additional basic attack with a bonus AS WELL AS A STANDARD ATTACK OR ACTION? That seems to be what it says.
Many powers take advantage of a phantom ‘second wind’. While I like the uniqueness of their effects from other healers, IMO the second wind term is used to distinguish itself from standard healing surge use, and the distinction is needed and therefore shouldn’t be used in class powers. Additionally, at first glance, the +2 defense buff this grants also seems to be a bit high. I would suggest a “healing surge use plus INT boost to one defense (Will or perhaps player’s choice)” replace instances of ‘second winds’.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saric
Very true, bard's were proficient with rapiers as well. Added.
To my understanding, a rapier is a superior melee weapon (should require a feat unless some concession is made otherwise).
Again, overall, this looks fantastic. You’ve really done your homework. I can’t wait to try it.
__________________ You want me to kill THE ENEMIES of Erathis, I'll kill THE ENEMIES of Erathis... Cultist, or Orc, or Gobbo... For 500 gold a month I'll kill whoever you want. But keep one thing in mind: I'd happily kill you for free.
Y'know, at first I thought "Oh, another fan-created class, nice", and expected no more than that. Then I started reading and saw neatly written basics (similar to the 4e phb) about the Bard, two types of Bard, and so on. Interesting
And then I saw the powers. Level 1 to 10. Level 10 to 20. Level 20 to 29. Sweet Pelor, there's practically 80 powers in the list, and most of what I've seen is well written, interesting, fits the Bard mystique and works mechanically. Some 3e spells made it to the list, and I liked that, since they were nifty
By now I was already awed and inspired by the amount of work that it took to craft all of this... and then I saw the paragon paths.
Saric, hands down, this is the best fanmade class I've seen for 4e, not in comparison to others, but as a standalone deal. Well done!
I'm not usually one to reply to these sorts of threads, but bards have always had a soft spot in my heart.
I didn't really go through all the powers, just skimmed a few examples at various levels, and I think you've got some neat ideas there. I'm curious though, I noted several powers (not just the 1st level at-wills) that increase in range/area as the bard levels. I haven't memorized all the other class's powers, but it seems to me that the only increases due to levels were the damages of the at-wills, and then only at 21st level (well, I guess the dragonborn's breath weapon, and healing word/inspiring word abilities increased too). Do you think straying from that idea is something the designers intend to do themselves eventually?
The main issue that stuck in my craw is the bard's skills: Streetwise and Arcana? I guess... I probably wouldn't hold a bard to those two... if anything, I'd give them History automatic. It's not a big deal though, since I can see a lot of bard's choosing those anyways, so why not make it simpler.
But the available skills being... all? (Well, all but Endurance). That's... a bit much, isn't it? Even the rogue (he of skill monkey fame) only has like 8-9 of the however many skills exist.
Now, since you can only pick three, maybe it's not so bad...
Until you get to your multiclass feat. It is strictly better than Skill Training for every skill except Endurance. I haven't explicitly checked, but I imagine that each skill can be covered by one multiclass feat or another, but it just seems... off... to me that one multiclass feat in particular should be so much more useful.
It's got a nice feel to it, and lot of flavor. But honestly its over powered.
At leas the level 1 powers are over powered compared to all other classes.
For example, you have a level 1 daily power that stuns an opponent and knocks it prone, and If I recall correctly did some damage as well.
No other class has a power that stuns an opponnent until level 10. Daze would have been a better choice.
You have another power that allows an attack against an enemy, grants yourself and an ally bonuses to attack, bonuses to defense, and temporary hit points for the ally...and that's a level 1 encounter power if I recall correctly.
Your concept and flavor are great, but I think you need to review the powers and bring them into balance with other leaders.
Like most, just starting to read through... I did a quick skim, then started reading each power and I'm very impressed. The omission of bards in 4e was a crying shame, so I'm pleased to say I will be counting this as CORE, barring any wonky powers that turn up.
That is a damn good observation. I just had an image of a bard using a greataxe as a makeshift lute/weapon.
Hmm, I'll get on it probably later tonight/tommorow. I'm really enjoying the suggestions you guys are throwing out there.
I guess I'll wait till later in the week to collect more feedback then release the new pdf.
Thanks again everyone, keep the ideas coming.
Personally, I rather liked this about the bard. I thought it was a deliberate class feature. The "light weapons only" limit on the rogue feels teeth-grindingly limiting to me.
I do understand the dilemma. No other class gets to make dex-based attacks with a heavy melee weapon.
Your choices are twofold: limit the weapons that can be used (effectively saying every bard in the world fights with a rapier), or change all of the melee attacks to Str vs. something, which brings the class in line with, say, clerics, as well as badly nerfing the melee build (which also brings it in line with clerics).
I need to read the whole thing, but right now I can say this is a great bard write-up (it helps that I think this is very close to what the actual Bard will look like ).
Just about the only thing I can "complain" about is how Corellon, god of magic and the arts, or Sehanine, god of love, trickery, and illusions, are not on the gods list! They're better fits IMO than Erathis (who has a stodgy, LN vibe to me) or Ioun (who is too much of a smarty pants ).
But that is really a minor complaint - great work all around! I like how the class synergizes with Half-Elves, Eladrin, Tieflings, Halflings and Gnomes (races that I think should make good Bards). I'm going to offer this class to my players so we can playtest it for you, and I'll run a few NPCs.
Last edited by Jonathan Moyer; 25th June 2008 at 05:07 PM..
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