4e Fan Creations and House RulesWorking on variant powers? Statting up a PC race or your version of a monster? Creating or converting an adventure? Put it here!
It's got a nice feel to it, and lot of flavor. But honestly its over powered.
At leas the level 1 powers are over powered compared to all other classes.
For example, you have a level 1 daily power that stuns an opponent and knocks it prone, and If I recall correctly did some damage as well.
No other class has a power that stuns an opponnent until level 10. Daze would have been a better choice.
No but the rogue gets blinding barrage which is probably worse than being stunned and its an burst effect which works on multiple targets. so yeah...
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF
You have another power that allows an attack against an enemy, grants yourself and an ally bonuses to attack, bonuses to defense, and temporary hit points for the ally...and that's a level 1 encounter power if I recall correctly.
See guarding attack and warlord's favor from the warlord especially when coupled with their respective "presences". Adding a bonus to ac equal to 1+ cha modifier or attack rolls equal to +1 your intelligence modifier. Also bear in mind they both do 2[w]+ str damage.
See also sacred flame which is an "at-will power" for the cleric, which is a ranged attack not a melee one and it deals 1d6 + wisdom mod and it grants temporary hit points or a saving throw.
I think its safe to say a 1[w] + dex modifier melee attack and a simple +1 to attack and defenses with temporary hp is either on par or underpowered compared to the potential you can dish out with either of those powers.
The only thing I can somewhat concede is maybe the bonus to attack and defenses shouldn't affect the bard as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF
Your concept and flavor are great, but I think you need to review the powers and bring them into balance with other leaders.
With all due respect, I think you need to read the other leader's powers a little more before you call out "overpowered".
Can you explain the justification for Inhibiting Song (page 4)? I would think it would need to do d6 or Weapon damage as well.
I have changed this already and will be in the new compilation. and yes it is 1d6, but only a static -2 to the target's next attack roll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2eBladeSinger
Would Tasha’s Hideous Laughter (page 5) be more viable if the save bonus was for a language difference rather than a racial difference. I can imagine that the power will be used most often on a member of another race. It would also give the bard advantages for learning other languages.
This is a very good idea and I will probably use it if you don't mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2eBladeSinger
G’elsewhere (page 9) raises a lot of questions for me. Is the random direction determined with a d10? What if it puts the ally or object into difficult or hazardous terrain? What if it puts them into a wall or off a cliff? Is there any reason that it isn’t usable on enemies?
I will admit it is a bit unclear, thus I will alter the description and tweak it a little bit so its less confusing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2eBladeSinger
Does Haste (page 11) grant an additional basic attack with a bonus AS WELL AS A STANDARD ATTACK OR ACTION? That seems to be what it says.
It should just be an additional basic attack. Thus if you wanted to use a standard action power and didn't move in the round you can attack 1 more time with just a "basic melee or ranged attack."
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2eBladeSinger
Many powers take advantage of a phantom ‘second wind’. While I like the uniqueness of their effects from other healers, IMO the second wind term is used to distinguish itself from standard healing surge use, and the distinction is needed and therefore shouldn’t be used in class powers. Additionally, at first glance, the +2 defense buff this grants also seems to be a bit high. I would suggest a “healing surge use plus INT boost to one defense (Will or perhaps player’s choice)” replace instances of ‘second winds’.
The original balance design was against cure light wounds. Cure light wounds creates a "virtual" healing surge out of thin air. This is extremely powerful especially during a long day or a difficult fight. Since the bard makes you use your own surge, making it act as a virtual second wind doesn't seem so bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2eBladeSinger
To my understanding, a rapier is a superior melee weapon (should require a feat unless some concession is made otherwise).
Rogues get proficiency with the hand crossbow and with shuriken. (they should have gotten rapier too.)
However, I'll think about it. Especially since I'm considering a possible limitation of weapon types(light blades) for the bard's melee attacks.
...
With all due respect, I think you need to read the other leader's powers a little more before you call out "overpowered".
Taking your advice, I reconsidered my thoughts that a couple powers might be a bit too good... and I decided that you're right. They are good, but not too good.
I'll be sending your PDF to a friend of mine who loves to play bards.
Very well done.
I just have one small lurker/moocher question: When will the updated/revised Bard PDF be release?
__________________ Show me the way to go home,
I'm tired and I want to go to bed.
I had a little drink about an hour ago,
And it's gone right to my head.
Wherever I may roam,
On land or sea or foam.
You will always hear me singing this song:
Show me the way to go home Song: Show me the way to go home
By Irving King, 1925
In Chicago? Wanna join a group in the suburbs? Head HERE!!
Come to Lon's Lair
What do you think about this alternative for Bards that fight with weapons and thus have no hands free to play the instrument?
Vocal Scarf 4+ <insert fluff text here>
Code:
Lvl 4 +1 840 gp Lvl 19 +4 105,000 gp
Lvl 9 +2 4,200 gp Lvl 24 +5 525,000 gp
Lvl 14 +3 21,000 gp Lvl 29 +6 2,625,000 gp
Item Slot: Neck Enhancement: Fortitude, Reflex, and Will Property: This item functions as a bard implement,
adding its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage
rolls for bard powers that use implements. If used in
this way, on a critical hit, it deals +1d6 thunder damage
per plus. Power (Daily): Free Action. Reroll a Diplomacy check
you just rolled. Use the new result.
What do you think about this alternative for Bards that fight with weapons and thus have no hands free to play the instrument?
Vocal Scarf 4+ <insert fluff text here>
Code:
Lvl 4 +1 840 gp Lvl 19 +4 105,000 gp
Lvl 9 +2 4,200 gp Lvl 24 +5 525,000 gp
Lvl 14 +3 21,000 gp Lvl 29 +6 2,625,000 gp
Item Slot: Neck Enhancement: Fortitude, Reflex, and Will Property: This item functions as a bard implement,
adding its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage
rolls for bard powers that use implements. If used in
this way, on a critical hit, it deals +1d6 thunder damage
per plus. Power (Daily): Free Action. Reroll a Diplomacy check
you just rolled. Use the new result.
Well considering that bardic instruments can be held or just worn around the body, it really doesn't seem necessary. Granted a scarf seems pretty damn trendy for a bard. I like it.
As long as its not used as a weapon to strangle some people...
Well considering that bardic instruments can be held or just worn around the body, it really doesn't seem necessary. Granted a scarf seems pretty damn trendy for a bard. I like it.
I don't know, it's just that the idea of playing an... harp or whatever, while fighting with a mele weapon doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, you only got two hands...
I'm glad that you've decided to make this class... I'm planning to GM a campaign to some friends, and one of them will not play unless she can be a bard. So, thanks a lot, and congratulations on your great work.
I do have one vague suggestion, though - historically (and, yes, I realize that this isn't a realistic game, but bear with me) Bards were more of story tellers and poets; not musicians. Perhaps it would be interesting to modify the class so the Bard can either use music or poetry to express his powers? I'm not sure how easily that could be done, and I have no idea how would implements work, then, but it's just something to consider.
[Although, I have to admit that music can be considered as a form of poetry, as well.]
I don't know, it's just that the idea of playing an... harp or whatever, while fighting with a mele weapon doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, you only got two hands...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL
I'm glad that you've decided to make this class... I'm planning to GM a campaign to some friends, and one of them will not play unless she can be a bard. So, thanks a lot, and congratulations on your great work.
I do have one vague suggestion, though - historically (and, yes, I realize that this isn't a realistic game, but bear with me) Bards were more of story tellers and poets; not musicians. Perhaps it would be interesting to modify the class so the Bard can either use music or poetry to express his powers? I'm not sure how easily that could be done, and I have no idea how would implements work, then, but it's just something to consider.
[Although, I have to admit that music can be considered as a form of poetry, as well.]
Most songs tell a story or are a form of poetry. Now to answer your questions. Bardic instruments work "exactly" like a holy symbol. The only difference between them is a bardic instrument only works on "bard" powers and the holy symbol does not. See page 236 of the phb for reference purposes. This means a bardic instrument can just be worn around the body and still grants its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage with bard powers that have the implement keyword.
If the bard doesn't want or can't play his "harp" he doesn't have to. If the bard wants to be a poet and inspire he can do that. He could make a poetry book and have it dangling on his waist and this would still grant him its bonus to damage/attack with bard powers. If the bard wants to swing his sword and fight while singing, he can do that too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StephenHawking
Nice update!
Quick question: Was Battle Hymn supposed to be +dex to the damage? It has dex vs AC as the attack, but doesn't add dex to it.
That is correct. I'll add it to the 3rd release.
Last edited by saric; 28th June 2008 at 10:09 PM..
So, as much as I like the bard paragon paths, been thinking of...
Divine oracle (Cleric PP): Terrifying insight means x2 rolls for VS will attacks. Many of the bard spellsongs are just that. I'd actually not pump wisdom much for this build, only enough to enter the pp since only 1 attack is actually based off wisdom.
This build would play mostly like a controller, using fascinate song, and with 2 rolls, would almost never miss.
Justiciar (Paladin PP): The aura-like bonuses just fit so well with a bard theme. Weaken is also amazing as a condition for just an ap.
Wizard of the Spiral Tower (Wiz PP): While you can't use the implement bonus, The One Sword, along with multi-class feats for wizard powers means this PP can be very handy.
Bloodmage (Wiz PP): The temp hp from some powers, coupled with healing hymn, keeps this pp less painful. Its only for wizard powers though, so use dailies like bigby's icy hand with wintertouch and lasting frost for maximum effect during a fight.
Blood action + Fascinate: 2+ targets restrained, and take ongoing 10? Yes please.
Shadow assassin (Rogue pp): Lot of fun here, mainly, I like the riposte for the dex bard. Halfling bards can especially enjoy this because their racial helps that much for it, and the action point thing is useful for any class that wants to hit.
Most songs tell a story or are a form of poetry. Now to answer your questions. Bardic instruments work "exactly" like a holy symbol. The only difference between them is a bardic instrument only works on "bard" powers and the holy symbol does not. See page 236 of the phb for reference purposes. This means a bardic instrument can just be worn around the body and still grants its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage with bard powers that have the implement keyword.
If the bard doesn't want or can't play his "harp" he doesn't have to. If the bard wants to be a poet and inspire he can do that. He could make a poetry book and have it dangling on his waist and this would still grant him its bonus to damage/attack with bard powers. If the bard wants to swing his sword and fight while singing, he can do that too.
I understand the rules you decided to assume, I just don't agree with it. To me, the song comes from the instrument, and there's no point in having an instrument if you're not going to play it.
In the case of a divine character he uses a holy "symbol". What's a symbol to you? A symbol does nothing but symbolizes your deity., then of course you don't need to wave it around, play it, rub it etc, it's there and it's enough. Now when it comes to the bard, his powers comes from his songs, and the instrument is the source of his songs (along with singing and his voice, but if he choses to do so in this way, he won't get an enhancement bonus since his throat is not magical per se) and thus, to me in order to benefit from an instruments enhancement bonus one needs to play the instrument.
I understand the rules you decided to assume, I just don't agree with it. To me, the song comes from the instrument, and there's no point in having an instrument if you're not going to play it.
In the case of a divine character he uses a holy "symbol". What's a symbol to you? A symbol does nothing but symbolizes your deity., then of course you don't need to wave it around, play it, rub it etc, it's there and it's enough. Now when it comes to the bard, his powers comes from his songs, and the instrument is the source of his songs (along with singing and his voice, but if he choses to do so in this way, he won't get an enhancement bonus since his throat is not magical per se) and thus, to me in order to benefit from an instruments enhancement bonus one needs to play the instrument.
There was a spell in spell compendium in 3.5 that recorded a tune you already have played and repeated it, called ghost harp I believe. Thus if you had the perform (sing) skill, you could always be accompanied by your favorite song.
The bard does not gain proficiency with a shield. Thus if you used the musician build you most likely will be playing an instrument and you have two hands free. Most likely this type of bard will not be running around in melee combat with a weapon in hand and will have no problem.
A hybrid bard who wishes to run around in melee now is completely screwed if he holds a sword in one of his hands. now he has to drop it or sheath it because the "designer" thought it was realistic to always play an instrument in combat with two hands to qualify for the "implement" keyword. It also seems kinda silly. "Hey, let me sheath my sword, whip out my mandolin and play a quick riff while the orc let his guard down. Ok now let me put my mandolin away or drop it and continue fighting."
No other base class in the game has to suffer like so to use an implement, why should the bard? (minus a few multi-classed classes like a dual-wielding ranger who now has a penchant for carrying a warlock rod around.)
So at the sake of "realism" I chose to do it this way. It is balanced and has a nice flavor if you choose to actually play the instrument. Now, unless you or anyone can think of a better way to let the bard successfully use a bardic instrument with two hands and successfully fight (with a weapon) without using the bard's lute as a makeshift club, or doing an incredible amount of shuffling around with his weapons/instrument, then my stance will stay as is regarding the matter.
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