4e Fan Creations and House RulesWorking on variant powers? Statting up a PC race or your version of a monster? Creating or converting an adventure? Put it here!
First of all, an excellent conversion of a 3.5 class to 4th Edition.
My only quibbles (minor) some have mentioned are some powers are perhaps overpowered. When I say overpowered, mind you, I don't mean broken. But, I think they might be just a few numbers off, that have to seem a slight advantage. Given playtesting, this could be off, but for right now, just some I might edit. Mostly, I'm using the source books as a guide for damage ranges and conditions.
For example: Inciting strike gives an ally temp hit points equal to int modifier + 1/2 level. As an at-will, I would simply remove the 1/2 level aspect, which seems well to compare to the Paladin's Bolstering strike (using just wisdom modifier as the bonus) or sacred flame (which uses just the charisma bonus)
For Improvised Jab, I might recommend that the bonus to attack come from a secondary attribute. At-wills that grant bonus uses a secondary stat for this (Furious smash attacks with str, but grants cha. ) Or, Righteous brand limits it to a type of attack (melee attacks). I could see the Jab being an Int bonus to hit on ALL attacks.
As for other powers,
Critical Strike: Require combat advantage instead of flanking, and have the effect grant combat advantage as well. A nice help for the rogue in the party, which otherwise doesn't hurt the effect or fluff.
Phantom Blow: again, use combat advantage (looks similar to critical strike btw???)
Immediate assistance: (using the pdf) might just reword the text box to be dex+2 versus AC, and add the special take before the attack tag.
Improvisation: Nothing (Just thought the fluff text was awesomely funny
Glitterdust: Ranged to Area
and that's all for now (got a little bored). As it turns out, my critique came out more as a proofreeding excersise for consistancy. So yeah, overall, still a solid class. Just think of these as possible edits before WotC hires you ;P
I read it and I hope to show tis to a friend that wanted to play a bard in 4e but couldn't, this might be a good substitute
Although reading the powers I do have a few questions and suggestions
When you mean that the target has an effect like a second wind, he also gains the +2 to all defenses as well, if so then some effects will be much more powerful than if it was just the healing (for example refreshing song gives healing surge value + int modifier in healing and +2 to defense versus just healing surge value to a Cleric's Cure Light Wounds) I would suggest reading over some of these activating second wind effects and take in mind that a second wind does more than heal.
I would suggest the target under Puppeter's influence to have a bonus on his save to do something suicidal or against his nature, maybe +2 to +4
I would suggest Melf's slumbering arrows to deal 1d8+cha instead of 3d8 and somehow weaken the sleeping effect (give opponents bonuses to resist and dodge the arrow the more they are hit by it, prevents stunlocking big opponents by constantly hammering them with sleep arrows and prevents it from overshadowing at wills.)
Everything else seems fine, keep up the good work
Last edited by leodav; 1st July 2008 at 03:00 AM..
My only quibbles (minor) some have mentioned are some powers are perhaps overpowered. Mostly, I'm using the source books as a guide for damage ranges and conditions.
For example: Inciting strike gives an ally temp hit points equal to int modifier + 1/2 level. As an at-will, I would simply remove the 1/2 level aspect, which seems well to compare to the Paladin's Bolstering strike (using just wisdom modifier as the bonus) or sacred flame (which uses just the charisma bonus)
#1 the bard isn't a paladin. #2 sacred flame gives charisma modifier + 1/2 level + its a ranged attack. I addressed this twice in this thread already.
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For Improvised Jab, I might recommend that the bonus to attack come from a secondary attribute. At-wills that grant bonus uses a secondary stat for this (Furious smash attacks with str, but grants cha. ) Or, Righteous brand limits it to a type of attack (melee attacks). I could see the Jab being an Int bonus to hit on ALL attacks.
Righteous brand works on all melee attacks until the end of your next turn, this also includes opportunity attacks and any power that includes multiple attacks. Improvised jab is only on the "next attack".
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As for other powers,
Critical Strike: Require combat advantage instead of flanking, and have the effect grant combat advantage as well. A nice help for the rogue in the party, which otherwise doesn't hurt the effect or fluff.
Noted on the combat advantage instead of just flanking, makes it more multi-purpose. Having it grant combat advantage for the allies is nice and all, but no.
Look at the cleric's divine glow, it also grants a +2 power bonus on attack rolls. However critical strike has a "requirement" and is a melee attack rather than used as a potential blast from safety.
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Phantom Blow: again, use combat advantage (looks similar to critical strike btw???)
Noted. This power needs to change, apparently it got lost in the transition. In my original manuscript it was supposed to be a daily power that lasted all encounter (save ends). However I moved it to an encounter power and seem to have forgotten about it. I'll have to modify it.
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Immediate assistance: (using the pdf) might just reword the text box to be dex+2 versus AC, and add the special take before the attack tag.
An interesting suggestion. I would suppose the text is a bit wonky.
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Improvisation: Nothing (Just thought the fluff text was awesomely funny
I liked it too.
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Glitterdust: Ranged to Area
Also Noted.
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Originally Posted by leodav
Although reading the powers I do have a few questions and suggestions
When you mean that the target has an effect like a second wind, he also gains the +2 to all defenses as well, if so then some effects will be much more powerful than if it was just the healing (for example refreshing song gives healing surge value + int modifier in healing and +2 to defense versus just healing surge value to a Cleric's Cure Light Wounds) I would suggest reading over some of these activating second wind effects and take in mind that a second wind does more than heal.
I am well aware that a second wind does more than heal. If you haven't noticed cure light wounds lets the person regain hit points as if they had a healing surge. Note that it does NOT consume a healing surge. Considering that the powers uses up surges rather than a "virtual" one. Having it grant +2 to all defenses seems pretty fair to me. I've been thinking about making them actually use up a person's second wind and not a "virtual" second wind.
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I would suggest the target under Puppeter's influence to have a bonus on his save to do something suicidal or against his nature, maybe +2 to +4
That is something to consider.
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I would suggest Melf's slumbering arrows to deal 1d8+cha instead of 3d8 and somehow weaken the sleeping effect (give opponents bonuses to resist and dodge the arrow the more they are hit by it, prevents stunlocking big opponents by constantly hammering them with sleep arrows and prevents it from overshadowing at wills.)
Its a daily power, its supposed to overshadow at-wills. The damage is debatable, and I have to see it more in playtesting to see how it pans out.
Now, do you or anybody else know a good conversion for the Sha'ir?
I loved the 3.5e version of the sha'ir. i think it is one of the coolest class ideas. I cannot wait to see someone competent to convert this class into 4th E - I am noooowhere near that and will be a long time before i get to that level. In addition, it will probably be ages before wotc moves a finger on that. they have a looong to-do list (4th E versions of barbarian, their version of bard -though they might as well yank this one, gnomes, druids, etc., and ok, the monk, too...)
Well done Saric! From what I have seen your bard seems both well balanced and thought out and from what I can tell, seems like an excellent 4e representation of the Bard class. I plan to take an in depth look at it and do some play testing before putting it into my campaign, but I'll let you know what I find and how it works out.
I have to agree with an earlier post though (I don't recall who it was), forget Devis and get a picture of Gimble in there
My only other critique is with the multiclass feat, Seeker of the Song. Was there not another ability that the feat could grant? This is essentially the same ability granted by the Cleric and Warlord multiclass feats, and while it is consitant, it doesn't seen like an iconic bard ability.
First off, I think this class is amazingly well done. I think a lot of its powers should be along the lines of what the warlord does. Honestly, I played a warlord for 5 levels, and was bored solid playing it. It seemed to be the closest to what the 3.5 fighter was, in terms of all the stuff it could do. I found that my most effective attack was to give my ally a +3 to attack and damage, while I only did 3 damage. Seemed a bit... underpowered, I think.
Anyways, enough of my complaints about the warlord class (and I may have just been underplaying it... I've never been fond of melee classes, at least ones that don't have any flashy moves).
I was reading over the comments posted earlier, and there's one thing I want to comment about regarding bardic music as an encounter ability. Right now, it's slightly better than the cleric's abilies, since you can give a +1 to everyone (not just the +1 to yourself that clerics can use), plus heal with it... but you have to take into consideration that a cleric can give himself that bonus and STILL heal, which bards can't do unless they pick up the right feat.
Second, you have to realize that in 3.0, 3.5, a +1 bonus to hit did not amount to much when you throw in all the other bonuses people had, so it wasn't that game breaking to have it apply to everyone for an indefinite amount of time. In 4th edition, a +1 bonus to attack and damage IS fairly major. If, however, you feel that it lasting until the end of your next turn, perhaps give it a sustain minor with the caveat that it can only be sustained twice? There are certain wizard spells like that.
The thing to remember about 4th edition is that all of the classes are different mechanically, but not thematically. The bard itself cannot be the same as the 3rd edition bard, not mechanically. Spellcasters in 4th edition are a lot less versatile than their 3rd edition, but much more consistent in what they can do, and this version of the bard fits that theme.
The concept behind some kind of orator giving bonuses, but not using an implement, well... in 3rd edition, I'm sure there is some sort of non-instrument item that gives bonuses, and it'd be the same in 4th. As mentioned, that scarf would work, as does almost any other kind of item. You could even make costumes an implement: perhaps an acrobat wears acrobat garb for the bonus, and an orator would wear attention grabbing clothes. Such items would give the added benefit of having a certain property (+ enhancement bonus as an item bonus to acrobatics in the first, maybe diplomacy in the second). The bard of 3.5 was typically represented as a musician, and this one follows that. The bard of 3.5 had options for being other than a musician, but most fluff focused on the music aspect, and this has about the same.
All in all, this is a very good class, and I quite eagerly replaced my warlord with it, when my warlord met an 'untimely' end.
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Now, do you or anybody else know a good conversion for the Sha'ir?
I loved the 3.5e version of the sha'ir. i think it is one of the coolest class ideas. I cannot wait to see someone competent to convert this class into 4th E - I am noooowhere near that and will be a long time before i get to that level. In addition, it will probably be ages before wotc moves a finger on that. they have a looong to-do list (4th E versions of barbarian, their version of bard -though they might as well yank this one, gnomes, druids, etc., and ok, the monk, too...)
so, please, please please... sha'ir?
I'm glad you liked it. However I am unaware of any conversion for the sha'ir class as of yet.
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Originally Posted by Arius
Well done Saric! From what I have seen your bard seems both well balanced and thought out and from what I can tell, seems like an excellent 4e representation of the Bard class. I plan to take an in depth look at it and do some play testing before putting it into my campaign, but I'll let you know what I find and how it works out.
I have to agree with an earlier post though (I don't recall who it was), forget Devis and get a picture of Gimble in there
My only other critique is with the multiclass feat, Seeker of the Song. Was there not another ability that the feat could grant? This is essentially the same ability granted by the Cleric and Warlord multiclass feats, and while it is consitant, it doesn't seen like an iconic bard ability.
I'm glad you like it. Nobody likes devis, the dnd psa's are right, he's been outsourced . As for the multi-class feat, it MUST be consistent with the others. The defender's ones allow them to mark, the strikers allow to deal additional damage, and the leader's can heal. Now I will concur that it isn't an iconic bard ability, but neither is combat challenge, divine challenge, hunter's quarry or warlock's curse for that matter. While I could give the multiclass bard another ability I won't because this makes the most sense at the time.
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Originally Posted by winterwolf
First off, I think this class is amazingly well done. I think a lot of its powers should be along the lines of what the warlord does. Honestly, I played a warlord for 5 levels, and was bored solid playing it. It seemed to be the closest to what the 3.5 fighter was, in terms of all the stuff it could do. I found that my most effective attack was to give my ally a +3 to attack and damage, while I only did 3 damage. Seemed a bit... underpowered, I think.
Anyways, enough of my complaints about the warlord class (and I may have just been underplaying it... I've never been fond of melee classes, at least ones that don't have any flashy moves).
I was reading over the comments posted earlier, and there's one thing I want to comment about regarding bardic music as an encounter ability. Right now, it's slightly better than the cleric's abilies, since you can give a +1 to everyone (not just the +1 to yourself that clerics can use), plus heal with it... but you have to take into consideration that a cleric can give himself that bonus and STILL heal, which bards can't do unless they pick up the right feat.
Second, you have to realize that in 3.0, 3.5, a +1 bonus to hit did not amount to much when you throw in all the other bonuses people had, so it wasn't that game breaking to have it apply to everyone for an indefinite amount of time. In 4th edition, a +1 bonus to attack and damage IS fairly major. If, however, you feel that it lasting until the end of your next turn, perhaps give it a sustain minor with the caveat that it can only be sustained twice? There are certain wizard spells like that.
The thing to remember about 4th edition is that all of the classes are different mechanically, but not thematically. The bard itself cannot be the same as the 3rd edition bard, not mechanically. Spellcasters in 4th edition are a lot less versatile than their 3rd edition, but much more consistent in what they can do, and this version of the bard fits that theme.
The concept behind some kind of orator giving bonuses, but not using an implement, well... in 3rd edition, I'm sure there is some sort of non-instrument item that gives bonuses, and it'd be the same in 4th. As mentioned, that scarf would work, as does almost any other kind of item. You could even make costumes an implement: perhaps an acrobat wears acrobat garb for the bonus, and an orator would wear attention grabbing clothes. Such items would give the added benefit of having a certain property (+ enhancement bonus as an item bonus to acrobatics in the first, maybe diplomacy in the second). The bard of 3.5 was typically represented as a musician, and this one follows that. The bard of 3.5 had options for being other than a musician, but most fluff focused on the music aspect, and this has about the same.
All in all, this is a very good class, and I quite eagerly replaced my warlord with it, when my warlord met an 'untimely' end.
I'm not quite sure where you are going with your post. You first imply bardic music is better than channel divinity, and then say make it last longer. I have also implied in this entire thread and the updated pdf that implements can almost be anything as long as it can be worn/carried and has some sort of relevance to the bard's form of inspiring. Yes I chose music as the basic idea, but it doesn't mean you can't alter the flavor.
I'm glad you like the class, toss me a line with more feedback or balance issues if you can.
Wow, this class is fantastic, I hope I will be able to take some design lessons from here and there.
My only critiques, that I've seen are issues you're already considering, are these:
Rapiers are the best light blades: every character pursuing the use of light blades should expend a feat to use them (that's why rogues don't get the proficiency from the beginning I think). So I would not give bards rapier proficiency.
The melee powers need to specify the weapons that can be used, in a way similar to that of the rogue. Nothing prevents you from leaving the longsword there, after all, bards use "spellsongs" to strike with their weapons, I'm sure such a thing can overcome some physical laws... As long as they make for good flavor
I would see (personal point of view here) a more "bardish" choice to have the Healing Hymn mechanic for Inspire Courage and vice-versa. This because I see the Inspire Courage ability more a signature ability for the bard. Of course that would leave a leader with considerably less healing power at low levels, but with all the HP boosting powers of the class, that would soon change. And Bardic Music: Healing Hymn would be a must song for every bard...
This would also fix the multiclass bard, that with Healing Hymn looks exactly like a multiclass cleric, nothing hints at a bardic nature.
I'm glad you like it. Nobody likes devis, the dnd psa's are right, he's been outsourced . As for the multi-class feat, it MUST be consistent with the others. The defender's ones allow them to mark, the strikers allow to deal additional damage, and the leader's can heal. Now I will concur that it isn't an iconic bard ability, but neither is combat challenge, divine challenge, hunter's quarry or warlock's curse for that matter. While I could give the multiclass bard another ability I won't because this makes the most sense at the time.
I understand the need to be consistant, but I would argue that there is variation in the existing multiclass feats and that the similiarities are pretty broad in some cases and dealing with such a small pool of choices it seems unlikely to not have some similarity.
The Fighter multiclass feat does not allow you to use Combat Challenge, but instead gives a bonus to attack + marking the opponent. While the Paladin multiclass feat allows you to use Divine Challenge, the equivalent of the Fighters Combat Challenge. Yes the both allow you to mark, but that is the only similarity.
While the Warlock allows you to use that pact's at-will power as an encounter power, not warlock's curse which would be more consistent with the Rangers Hunter's Quarry and the Rogue's Sneak Attack. Sure the pact at-will does damage, but the damage is consistent with most other at-wills without the added extra effects (specifically extra damage if X happens), but the extra effects are pretty easy to avoid since it's a once per encounter ability. In that way work's more like control effect than increased damage, and more along the lines of Wizard's multiclass feat.
Clerics and Warlord's have the equivalent ability with their multiclass feat, which is at least consistent, but I just think that every leader having their class healing ability is going to lead to a list of "choices" which have the same effect. You could just have a Leader multiclass feat where you choose a leader class and gain their class healing feature.
Now as for iconic abilities, I would argue that the warlock's curse and hunter's quarry (4e version of favored enemies) are iconic abilities. And while the combat challenge isn't an iconic fighter ability, I'm not sure that 3e fighter's had an iconic ability other than crap-loads of feats, which obviously doesn't translate into 4e given the number of feats all characters get. Leaving only the paladin that doesn’t quite fit the mold, and the only iconic ability that carried over being smite or lay of hands.
In any case, I will likely make the change in my campaign, you may or may not, but it doesn't change the fact that its a solid piece of work. Again kudos and thanks for all your hard work! I'm looking forward to seeing it in play.
Saric, is the most current version the one on the PDF download?
Has anyone playtested this class already and has feedback? At first glance it looks great and seems like a fantastic conversion of the 3e Bard to 4e, but I'd like to know also how it handles on the field.
Saric, is the most current version the one on the PDF download?
Has anyone playtested this class already and has feedback? At first glance it looks great and seems like a fantastic conversion of the 3e Bard to 4e, but I'd like to know also how it handles on the field.
That would be correct. The newest one posted in the "update" section. However, I've been trying to work on a new update in my spare time, things have just been hectic recently.
One was the cha/int focus gnome, I was the dex/cha focus halfling.
The first was cool, fascinate was an interesting control effect for regular monsters, restrained is a nice touch. And with Lingering Song (feat) or Lingering Chorus (utility 10), meant they could lock down 2 creatures, felt very controller-like. On the flipside, at 10th we ran out of encounters pretty fast, and were down to the at wills pretty quickly.
At will for the cha/int focus seemed sad, -2 hit was ok, but the saving throw one was situational. More often than not though, he enjoyed the fascinate lockdown.
Deafened wasn't that handy from Deafening Blast due to the new stealth rules. Pyrotechnics was ok, but the bard ended up using fascinate at range, and daze effect while nice to grant CA wasn't stellar in combat. Did work well vs a ranged monster though, since they couldn't shift and attack.
The dailies of Burst of Awe, Glitterdust, and Soundburst were amazing.
The other one, which I have more experience with was a melee focused halfling with dual wielding rapier. The two weapon line of feats, and nimble blade, and rapier meant I hit as often as any melee'r could especially with powers like Immediate Assistance when needed and keep near max defenses.
I used Distorting Strike vs the other that dazed, weaken was a nice touch on a solo because you're almost gauranteed to get hit by their 1 action, and as a melee bard you're trying to get CA more than not.
Again, I ran out of encounters, but those I did have like tactical precision, as well as Combined Talent, really helped hitting as well as dealing more damage. Also when down to at wills, inciting strike was pretty neat for me and a rogue teamed up vs a brute and took it down faster than a defender and striker did,
All in all, I had more healing, and luckily, didn't get hit due to being a halfling in most encounters. That said, I did have difficulties flanking in an encounter unless I went first, and even +2 vs OAs wasn't enough to keep me safe. So the extra healing kept me on going when I did get hit, and the Lively step for example, could allow me to circle around monsters. Regardless, it seems like I was just providing a +hit like a taclord would but more consistently.
In hindsight, maybe I should've picked a medium sized race and used spike chain or a reach weapon? Not sure if this would've helped my issues, but its definitely a consideration.
Conclusion, fun times by both builds, though I felt a little lackluster as the melee guy, only buffing others really. The cha/int one seemed much more controller like, especially with fascinate as its focus.
Has anyone playtested this class already and has feedback?
I had a chance to play test a couple bard builds recently and I thought I’d share the results. The two characters were intended to be NPCs but with full stats that they might join an adventure occasionally, or as a temporary character in the event of character death, which have been frequent as of late. While the NPCs have only just met the party, I recently ran a one-off for a new player (who played the fighter) and a 3e vet (who played the bard), and these two NPCs were their characters, along with a warmage type staff wizard I threw together played by myself. The one-off opened with a skill challenge followed by 4 combats loosely based off Bordrin’s Watch adventure (WotC).
The first build was a Fighter / Bard multiclass (Eladrin Spear Fighter 5). I picked up a couple Bard powers (Critical Strike and Healing Hymn) that worked nicely to compliment the Fighter powers (Villain’s Menace, Rain of Blows, and Rain of Steel among others) which worked out pretty well. I won’t go into a lot of detail as a 5 level character multiclass doesn’t have much to show, but the other was a pure Bard, musician type build.
The second character was a Half-elf Bard 4 with the following stats:
Alyssa Cloverfield Good Half-elf Bard 4 Str 8, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 17, Wis 12, Cha 18
Abilities: Dilettante: I chose Enfeebling Strike as a Cha based melee should she get in a bad spot. Bardic Music: Inspire Courage and Fascinating Song. Feats: Jack of All Trades, Lingering Melody, Raging Storm. Cantrips: Prestidigitation and Ghost Sound. At-Wills: Inhibiting Song and Warning Yell. Encounter: Distracting Shout and Ironthunder Horn. Daily: Burst of Awe. Utility: Improvisation.
[Coles notes to follow.]
The opening encounter was the skill challenge (trek across the mountain: complexity 2) where the bard did quite well with a decent amount of trained skills and jack of all trades to boost the rest. It started off bad though with the first two players rolling a natural 1 and 2 for two of three allowed failures. The pressure was on but the group rallied. The challenge required two players to make endurance checks with the highest bonus being held by the wizard (!). The bard player was please to see Improvisation and promptly boosted the second ally while she made her own check (Perception) for a total of three successes. The group went on to victory.
The following encounter had the PCs scaling the fortress walls as the Fighter led the group Climb check up 50 feet and over the top. Once atop the wall the bard suffered her first frustrations. As the Fighter made good use of his longbow and the Wizard used a variety of range attacks including scorching burst and magic missiles, the bard struggled to find a ranged spell with a range greater than 5. Having a low Dex in order to put a few points to Con (what was I thinking) her ranged basic attack was craptacular and the only power with range 10 she had was Fascinating Song, but both other characters were engaging the same group. The rest of the battle for the bard was a lot of misses until the final combatant shoved the Eladrin over the edge of the wall, where he dangled perilously below the remaining orc. A timely Healing Hymn and an Enfeebling Strike saved the day though.
Inside the fortress again the bard was met with frustration as ranged attacks failed and the Wizard and Fighter made short work of enemies from long ranged. As the enemies closed to a close range that she might use more spells, the fighter was quickly overwhelmed by orc fodder and the rest found their way into the secondary ranks. Having found herself stuck in melee with a rather nasty orc she found her first success when she used Ironthunder Horn to blast the enemy and knock it prone. She burned an action point to activate Distracting Shout while her fighter company jumped in with a basic attack and the foe was vanquished. She sat there stunned for a moment, shocked, but at the same time pleased with herself.
As the encounter at the alter came to a close, the party headed down through a secret door into a large underground cathedral. The party tried to be stealthy with the goal to sneaking up on their foes, but as a single orc caught sight of them, the wizard went off and started launching long range spells. The fighter quickly joined in with his longbow while the bard cursed under her breath for not having a better ranged attack. The Fascinating Song missed for the second time and frustration returned.
I suggested looking over her other options pointing out Inspire Courage. After reading it she looked at me and said it’s a standard action, and it gives a +1 to attack and damage for one round, that sucks, why on earth would anybody give up a standard action to use that? I found myself unable to argue the point, it was a minor buff with a short term and no other effect (as the fear save thing is quite situational and would rarely apply). Having become irritated by the whole thing, she leaped over the side of the stairs targeting the nearest orc and landing square on top of him before standing back up and throwing off a Healing Hymn.
It is here the battle got slightly chaotic as the fighter fearing the demise of the bard jumped himself, but a natural one ensures a long fall flat on his face while the wizard juggled between Bigby’s Icy Grasp and Flaming Sphere to the clear the stairs. As the melee ensued, the bard made good use of Ironthunder Horn again, as well as Distracting Shout and the paladin power Enfeebling Strike, but not before she dropped a Burst of Awe hammering every enemy in range with a daze and the final Healing Hymn for the fighter. She rounded out the encounter with an Improvisation and a few At-Wills as the party mopped up the surviving orcs.
Cole’s Notes / Summary: All in all, she had mixed feelings about the bard (and 4e in general), part of that was the range of powers combined with the crappy ranged attack (which is obviously build based) and although she liked some of the powers, especially the encounter powers I chose, she was thoroughly unimpressed by the Bardic Music ones.
She found the At-Wills mediocre, and although they are obviously the least powerful spells, the Warning Yell was very situational (and we didn’t really fight many controller types except the Witch Doctor who got thoroughly felt up by Bigby’s Hand) and the Inhibiting Song wasn’t much to write home about.
She especially like the encounter powers, Ironthunder Horn being the favorite with the high damage / prone combo, and team inspired Distracting Shout in a close second.
The daily Burst of Awe was a life saver, especially when combined with the daily effect of her Horn of Life implement (as holy symbol), and combined with the Healing Hymn as a minor action was able to keep the group going without being the healing machine that was required in previous editions.
The utility power Improvisation didn’t see a lot of use, but it wasn’t until the final encounter that she realized it was a minor action to cast, and noted that she would have made better use of that power had she known sooner.
Lastly the Bardic Music effects were a sore spot to say the least, and she had the following suggestions (some of which may have been already discussed so my apologies if so).
The Fascinating Song would have been cool if she had got it off, but it really seemed to lack staying power even if you did. I wonder if a combo of sustain minor, and save ends (to force it to end prematurely) would work better.
For Inspire Courage, as a standard action buff that does no damage or meaningful secondary effect and only lasts one round, it needs some help. My suggestion would be to leave it as is but make it a minor action, or better yet, increase the bonus by 1 (making it +2/3/4) or half Int modifier, and make it sustainable (either sustain minor, or sustain move or something).
I hope the feedback helps and thanks again Saric for your efforts!
Edit: I noticed that in my haste building this character, I seemed to have changed my stats and no longer qualify for the feat Raging Storm. Stats have been adjusted to correct, and I shifted a few of those Con/Wis points to Dex for use with a bow.
Last edited by Arius; 18th August 2008 at 03:49 AM..
Reason: Noticed Build Error
@HalWhitewyrm - No problem, i hope it was helpful, if a little long winded.
With respect to the bard class, I wonder if an at-will with a range of 10-20 is in order for the bard. The cleric has at range at-wills with range 5 while the warlord has one with no range limitation, and both also have superior armor proficiencies compared to the bard. Say for instance ...
Sonic Orb
At-Will * Arcane, Implement, Thunder
Standard Action Range 20
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d8 + Charisma modifier thunder damage.
I like the idea of this class, but the powers are all far above and beyond the Core class abilities. I believe the Bard should be the Jack of all Trades and Master of none.
As written, this bard is the Jack of all Trades.... and better at it than the other guys.
One of my players is looking to use this class, so I suggested some toning down of the abilities he is looking to use. I post them here for input and help making this class one that isn't the best man at the party.
REad here for a short summation of what the problems I see in the class:
Spoiler:
Wow... ouch..
I am still kinda new at the balance of 4e, but there are a number of things in this class that just jump out at me.
Inciting Strike: At will attack that deal damage and grants Temp hp
Critical Strike, Bard 1 Encounter
1[w]+mod, all allies within 3 gain +2 to hit target and one ally w/in 5 can spend a healing surge
Vs
Lions Roar, Warlord 7 Encounter
2[W]+mod, you or one ally w/in 5 can spend a healing surge
Accelerated Strike, Bard 1 Daily
3[w]+ mod and allies w/in 5 can shift as minor for remainder of encounter
Vs
Brute Strike, Fighter 1 Daily
3[W] + mod
Raging Pulse, Bard 6 Daily Utility
Burst 5, all allies w/ range gain temp hp, -1 to AC and +1 to attacks, damage, and will Def until end of encounter.
Vs
Hallowed Circle, Paladin 5 Daily
Burst 3, creates zone where allies gain +1 bonus to all defenses. Zone last until end of encounter or until dispelled.
These are the ones that were obviously 'proud nails'. I didn't go digging into the higher level abilities. This bard class is cool.. IMHO too cool. It has burst effects, boost effects, major healing effects, and some of the heaviest hitting weapon attacks in the game. Basically it’s a better X than X is, with the possible exception of the Striker classes.
My apologies for the formatting.... its taken me longer to figure this out than expected and should be making dinner about an hour ago...
At Wills
Inciting Strike
Hit: 1[W] + Dex mod and mark the target. Allies gain +2 additional damage to melee attacks against the marked target.
Improvised Jab
Hit: 1[W]
Effect: Select one ally within 5. target grants combat advantage to that allies melee attacks until the start of your next turn
Warning Yell
Chr vs Will
Hit 1D8 + Chr mod. Select one ally that is adjacent to the target. That ally gains +2 to defenses from attacks from the target until the start of your next turn.
Encounter
Distracting Shout
Hit: 1D8 + Chr
Change last line. Allies basic attack gains the int bonus to only damage
Iron Thunder Horn
Hit 1D10 + Chr Mod and target is knocked prone
Deafening Blast
Close Blast 5
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack Chr vs Fort
2D6 + Chr mod, target is deafened (Save ends)
Effect: glass in the area of effect shatters
Dailies:
Immediate Assistance
Trigger: An ally within 5 squares is hit by a melee attack
Attack: Chr vs Will
Hit 2D6 + Chr mod
Effect: Target is weakened until the start of your next turn.
Sonic Weapon
Daily Arcane*Thunder*weapon Close Blast 3
Standard action Must be wielding a melee weapon
Attack: Chr vs Fort.
Hit: 3[w] + Chr mod and you push the target a number of squares equal to your wisdom mod.
Miss: Half damage
Sound Burst:
Attack Chr vs Fort
Hit: 2D8 + Chr mod and Dazed (save ends)
Miss: Half Damage
Sustain: Move action. Dazed targets suffer a penalty to their save equal to your Int Mod
Utilities:
Inspirational Boost
Encounter: Move action Close burst 5
Effect: Allies within 5 squares of you gain temporary hit points equal to 5 + your Chr mod
Heroism
Effect: Target may make an immediate save to shake off ongoing effects as a free action
Target may spend a healing surge as a free action
Bardic Music:
Countersong
As written
Inspire Courage
power bonus to attack only.
Immediate save against a persistant [Fear] effect
Sustain: Move action
Fascinating Song
Hit: target is immobilized and cannot take attacks against the Bard until the end of your next turn.
Sustain: Standard Action
Special: The target gains an immediate save against this effect each time it is attacked by you or your ally.
Inspire Competence:
Select a skill you have training in. Allies within range gain a +2 power bonus to their skill checks for that skill until the end of your next turn or until the end of the skill challenge phase.
Healing Hymn
Encounter: Arcane/Healing
Minor Action. Close Burst 5 (10 at 11th level, 15 at 21st level)
Target: You or one ally
Effect: Target gains temporary hit points as if they had spent a healing surge and an additional +1D6.
You can target one additional ally at 7th level, two additional at 14th level, three additional at 21st level, and four additional at 28th level.
__________________
"Words take on strange and wonderful powers when they are written down.
Context and intonation disappear, and the words sit in a void to be construed according to the mood, intelligence and socio-political leanings of the reader."
--- Siri Agrell
I'm not going through all that, because it's not my class, but I'll say that the cleric has an at-will that grants temporary HP, and he can do it from 5 squares, so I don't really see the big deal?
Old Gumphrey, Thanks! I missed that one.
So the concept of temp hit points as an at-will is in the Core... but that leads to the next concern...
How much of the bard presented here cherry picks the best of out of other classes?
Many of the powers are simply renamed versions of other class powers...
Anyway, it looks like I will be starting from scratch and building my own Bard class instead of trying to rejigger this one.
Thanks for the input.
__________________
"Words take on strange and wonderful powers when they are written down.
Context and intonation disappear, and the words sit in a void to be construed according to the mood, intelligence and socio-political leanings of the reader."
--- Siri Agrell
. As for the multi-class feat, it MUST be consistent with the others. The defender's ones allow them to mark, the strikers allow to deal additional damage, and the leader's can heal. Now I will concur that it isn't an iconic bard ability, but neither is combat challenge, divine challenge, hunter's quarry or warlock's curse for that matter. 
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