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A week from today I'll be running my 3rd Obsidian skill challenge and I wanted to share the plan in case of useful feedback beforehand or just to give others ideas. I'll update after the fact as well.
Setup: The party is going to the site of a lumber camp destroyed by goblins of the Wolfskull and Redblade tribes working together. It is the last known location of their uncle, Stephan, and they want to look for any clues as to whether he was killed, captured, etc. When the arrive they will find the captain Kalanos, who used to transport the lumber from the camp. During the attack his boat was sunk and crew killed/captured. He hid and was witness to the massacre and destruction and it has driven him mad. When approached he will be wandering aimlessly among the corpses and, upon seeing the party will run screaming into the woods, hacking randomly at trees with his axe. The challenge is to calm him down so they can get the information they need as well as get him back to their homestead so he can be looked after and hopefully recover.
CALMING KALANOS
(a.k.a. getting an NPC with PTSD to help rather than attack)
Primary skill: Diplomacy Victory: Kalanos is placated and will travel with the PCs to their homestead. He remembers and tells them that he saw Stephan among humans captured by goblins of the Wolfskull clan. Partial Victory: Kalanos will go with the party and reveals that he thinks Stephan was captured but is not sure and in any case cannot remember details that would indicate which goblin clan took him away. Not until time has passed at the homestead where he can rest and regain his wits will he remember that it was the Wolfskulls. Failure: Kalanos, in his deluded state, is convinced that the PCs are goblins under some magical disguise or some other sort of assailants and attacks. The party must subdue him and after doing so will get no information at all until he rests back at the homestead.
Example anticipated uses of skills:
Arcana: Check for signs of magical influence on Kalanos. There are none, thus good for 1 success max. Bluff: Tell him that the goblins have been defeated and it is safe to go with the PCs to the homestead. Diplomacy: Primary skill for convincing him that returning with them and telling them what he knows is the best course of action. Heal: Use as Knowledge check to infer from his behavior and appearance that he is uninjured by emaciated and appears to be suffering from posttraumatic stress, which would assist in how to best placate him. History: Used to remember relevant connections between him and the lumber camp, e.g. that he had family members here that were killed/captured. Insight: Infer his mental state so as to better empathize and interact him .Intimidate: Discourage him from attacking the party. Perception: Notice his boat is not at the dock, which will yield Kalanos' explanation that it was sunk and the crew killed, better enabling the party to sympathize him and interact accordingly. Good for 1 success max.
I ran my first D&D game in over a decade recently, and the Obsidian skill challenges were some of the best parts of the night.
I had three players -- two old timers and a newbie -- and all three took to the Obsidian system immediately and easily. I didn't use the extra options like Bold Recovery, but I did say that good roleplaying and original ideas would be rewarded with bonuses, and the players were happy to take advantage of that.
The first challenge had the players helping to save halfling families from a fire spreading through a floating village of skiffs and houseboats. Primary skills (+2) were Athletics and Heal. I reduced the DC by 1 because the players were only strong in Heal, and I wanted their first Obsidian experience to be a positive one.
The players earned a critical success on the first role, and managed a partial success overall. They probably could have won a full success, but one player tried to Intimidate the unknown arsonist, which had no chance of success (the arsonist was gone). The reward was mostly thematic, as the halflings took time from their tears to thank the players for doing what they could.
The second challenge was a trek through marshy ravines and storm-swollen rivers. Primary skills were Endurance and Nature, and players were encouraged to invent both the obstacles they encountered in the wild as well as how they overcame them.
The players found it easy to come up with ideas for skill uses, although I had to encourage them to invent specific and colourful obstacles too. They beat this challenge handily, giving them a surprise round in a combat that followed (two swarms of scabby needle-toothed cats attacked them as they tried to cross the pilings of a ruined bridge -- I liked that one).
Observations:
The system seemed well balanced for the small number of players, more so than the official combat system, which was very chaotic with three.
The idea of partial success fits in very well with the 4e principal of having failures be complications rather than disasters.
My players really wanted to use a range of skills, even when they were trained in the primary skill and received a +2 on those rolls. I limited non-primary skill rolls to once-per-challenge, but they enjoyed searching their sheets for creative ways to use all their skills. I tried to channel this urge by limiting primary skill rolls too -- you could only describe the same action once. So they could say one Heal roll is for mouth-to-mouth on the matronly cook, while the next is for treating burns on the child pulled from the flames. This gave them an outlet for their creativity.
Players sometimes wanted to use their at-wills to complete the challenge; for example, the wizard used her Thunderwave to spray water over burning boats. I allowed this as an Arcana roll, although now that I think of it, maybe a straight Int roll, like an attack, would have been more appropriate? The roll was a 1, so my choice didn't matter. Healing spells in particular seem like they would have been useful in the burning village challenge, although the cleric stuck to his Heal skill. Any thoughts on the use of at-wills in skill challenges?
My immense thanks to Stalker0 for coming up with the Obsidian system. This gaming night was a rare one for my friends and I, and you helped make it memorable.
Players sometimes wanted to use their at-wills to complete the challenge; for example, the wizard used her Thunderwave to spray water over burning boats. I allowed this as an Arcana roll, although now that I think of it, maybe a straight Int roll, like an attack, would have been more appropriate? The roll was a 1, so my choice didn't matter. Healing spells in particular seem like they would have been useful in the burning village challenge, although the cleric stuck to his Heal skill. Any thoughts on the use of at-wills in skill challenges?
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The mechanic of Obsidian is the skill check, but the flavor can be whatever the players want. Feel free to use their powers as a means of focusing their creativity on a particular action. In fact, I would have no problem as a DM if my player wants to use his daily simply for flavor description. He doesn't actually expend the daily, he just uses it to describe how he's doing this action. The end result is still a skill check however.
Of course, its a bit different with utility powers, as those often give a bonus to skills. Basically if the power actually gives the players an advantage it should be spent. Otherwise, let it roll!!
Also, keep in mind the system provides primary skills as a way to give every player a good skill for the challenge, but it doesn't have to be the only skill they use. I created three types of challenges: Social, Mental, and Physical, that all have a general range of skills the players can use. Of course the DM always has the final say on what skills to allow, but feel free to use the skill types as a way to give your players a quick list of skills they can use, without trying to pull out skills that don't really make sense for the challenge.
Finally got around to using Obsidian with my group last Wednesday after a number of weeks of combat (we only play about 2-3 hours per week) heavy sessions. I thought I'd post some observations.
The group were trekking through moorland after an exceptionally heavy storm (this was how the PC's met, sheltering from the storm) and the mule that one of them was riding wandered into the bog. The PC avoided falling in. The Skill Challenge was a physical one; Rescue the Mule. Failure: Lose mule and its load. Partial Success: Lose a few items, save the mule. Success: Save everything. Primary Skill: Athletics.
I'm in two minds about whether or not my party "liked" the encounter. They were (eventually) creative (even the mule's owner, who after a tantrum that would have Basil Fawlty thinking WTF! [replace mini with mule and you have the rough idea] got into the spirit of things, and decided he would pray for the mule - thinking outside the box, so I let him do it). How did it play out now?
Round One: Mage tried to attach rope to mule using magic [Arcana]. Someone tried to look for a rock or something to attach the other end of the rope to [Dex check]. The ranger tried to calm the mule [Nature]. It started getting a little "How many people does it take to change a light bulb" around this point. The remaining three members of the party decided to try moving items off the mule to prevent it sinking further [Endurance - we figured they would be flailing around in the mud].
End Result - 1 Success [Calm the mule]. 5 Failures.
Therein began a long discussion about whether or not this was roleplaying...I kind of got the impression that they didn't like it. I pointed out that Obsidian was an improvement on the RAW. I wanted to continue with it.
Round Two: We had discussed during our break that suitable people needed to take on suitable roles. So they redistributed the jobs, the cleric started praying, but they didn't roll particularly well and again there was only one success I think.
Round Three: I think the party were secretly resigned to losing the mule, but did their best to avoid it. Most were making the same checks as during the previous round, and a number of them used action points to reroll dice. Somehow they got the number of successes to earn a partial victory.
Thoughts: Running the skill challenge was not a resounding success - a bit like the rescue attempt in that respect. I got the impression that some of my players were cool with it, others didn't like it. Part of the problem I'm having running my game at the moment is that all the player have many, many years RP experience, so they generally work well together, and have "expectations". I think that those that didn't like it were primarily dissatisfied with the non-linear nature of the skill checks [how this affected what they regarded as "roleplaying" - bear in mind that for four weeks they've been in a dungeon and things have been combat heavy, so they want to roleplay rather than fight, which I can appreciate], and how difficult it seemed to get a success [DC 18 at level 1], even though I handed out a reasonable number of +2 bonuses.
Outcome: I can sympathise with those players that seem to dislike skill challenges (not just Obsidian, but RAW too), as it is non-linear, real life problems do not break down into three easy rounds, it is different from anything they have come across before. I think I can work around their doubts, so I am not going to give up yet.
The one thing we did decide on was to lower the DC by 1. I'm not too worried about this. All party members are human, my campaign rule, and whilst everyone is playing a different class, only two of the six players have any skill bonuses at +10, the rest have mainly +5 to +8 as their best bonus. So, I figured give them the break.
Anyone got any suggestions on how they make skill challenges go smoothly?
I would recommend moving the die roll to before the results of the action are described and then have the players describe it based on the result of the die roll. Give them conditions too. For example, someone rolls a 17. It's above the DC to pick the cheap lock on the room they need to search, but not above the DC to gain a success in the skill challenge. You then ask the player to tell you about how they get in and maybe even about what they find in the room, but also about how it does not make any progress towards their aims.
If you think about a given use of a skill, it can actually produce a variety of results:
1) the task fails and no progress is made towards the goal of the skill challenge
2) the task succeeds and no progress is made towards the goal of the skill challenge
3) the task fails and progress is made
4) the task succeeds and progress is made
5) the task fails and a new variable/complication is introduced (with progress or not)
6) the task suceeds and a new variable/complication is introduced (with progress or not)
Wether or not the DC of the skill challenge is met determines whether or not overall progress is made, but doesn't necessarily have to determine anything else.
The mule sinking is a pretty bad example to go with though. The only people to have dialogue with are each other and a mule and in a crisis situation, that's probably going to result in what? The shouting of orders, cries of warning, soothing words to the mule? Not a lot going on there. In a movie or tv show, I could see the whole scene happening in a silent slow motion sequence. Lots of splattering mud, people shouting, the mule's scared face. Straining, tugging, but interesting dialogue? No way.
Not that there's anything wrong with a skill challenge about saving a mule. I think it is an awesome idea. As long as its not just a random complication for no good reason. Skill challenges, successful completed or not, are supposed to drive the story forward. For example, the mule could have been carrying a package they were delivering for a noble/mob boss/sorcerer. Losing that can have far more interesting implications that them just losing a mule and some rations. Or a fortune teller in the last town told them that if they lose one of their number on the next leg of their journey, their fates would be cursed. Now they need to worry about whether or not the mule counts and what it could all mean.
Finally got around to using Obsidian with my group last Wednesday after a number of weeks of combat (we only play about 2-3 hours per week) heavy sessions. I thought I'd post some observations.
The one thing we did decide on was to lower the DC by 1. I'm not too worried about this. All party members are human, my campaign rule, and whilst everyone is playing a different class, only two of the six players have any skill bonuses at +10, the rest have mainly +5 to +8 as their best bonus. So, I figured give them the break.
This is the first real report of problems with the system, so I'm glad you posted. For your group, I think a -1 to the DC could be a fine idea. If your group really doesn't have many skills they are truly good at, then its fine to lower the DC.
As for suggestions, I understand your parties feelings about roleplaying vs a mechanical challenge. It may simply be that the mule scenario is too "mundane" a challenge for the party to enjoy a skill challenge at. One thing about my system is, with the 3 rounds, skill challenges are a "bigger deal" than it is the in normal system.
So you may find that in scenarios like this, you have the party roleplay it out. And for example, the next time they meet a shopkeeper, just let them roleplay with the shopkeeper. But you might try a skill challenge for the bigger stakes, like negotiating with a noble. Every group has a threshold for what they consider is worthy of a challenge, and your group may simply have a higher threshold than others.
I like this skill challenge system very much, but I don't like the Xp reward and the challenges in combat thing.
You should just change the Successes needed for victory column Players to Complexity. Then the XP are calculated just like the standard rules, and so the challengees in combat. So a complexity 5 challenge (partial 6, victory 8) with level 5 DCs would be rewarded with the Xp value of 5 level 5 monsters.
If you want to put a skill challenge in combat just spend your XP, so for example for a group of 6 players of level 4 take 3 level 4 monsters and a complexity 3 challenge with level 4 DCs.
This doesn't change the balance (as far as I know) and is much simpler and more flexible and compatible with things made with the standard system.
Having run a couple of skill challenges using this system, I must say for me it is kind of a mixed bag.
It is much easier to improvise, but it is harder to give consistence to the describtion side of things, because everthing has to be broken down in 3 segments.
Examples: I ran a chase scene last session. The players rescued a bunch of prisoners, ran with them through a dungeon, Hobgoblins behind them.
In a Core SC I could just describe the Hobgoblins winning or loosing ground with every fail/success. With Obsidian, it is hard to decide, when to tell the players they are loosing ground.
How do you do this? (I want to keep this system, just because it works so much better, I just have to solve the non mechanical side of things)
In a Core SC I could just describe the Hobgoblins winning or loosing ground with every fail/success. With Obsidian, it is hard to decide, when to tell the players they are loosing ground.
How do you do this? (I want to keep this system, just because it works so much better, I just have to solve the non mechanical side of things)
The best way to do this is at the end of each segment. For example, during the first segment the players are being chased down a large market square. They manage to get half the number of successes needed for a total victory, so at the end of the segment you describe them vastly outrun the hobgoblins. In section 2 they are moving through a winding series of alleyways. They don't do as well in this section, so you mention that the party is almost there but the hobgoblins are started to gain again. The third segment is a straight dash towards freedom, and you describe the final results at the end.
Use the segments as midpoints points to change the scene to keep the challenge dynamic, and give the party updates on how they are doing. As another example, in a social challenge, have the opposing party's attitude change at the end of each segment. After segment one if the party is doing well, have the person attitude becomes a little friendlier. If they started out poorly, have him become less interested.
I like this skill challenge system very much, but I don't like the Xp reward and the challenges in combat thing.
You should just change the Successes needed for victory column Players to Complexity. Then the XP are calculated just like the standard rules, and so the challengees in combat. So a complexity 5 challenge (partial 6, victory 8) with level 5 DCs would be rewarded with the Xp value of 5 level 5 monsters.
If you want to put a skill challenge in combat just spend your XP, so for example for a group of 6 players of level 4 take 3 level 4 monsters and a complexity 3 challenge with level 4 DCs.
This doesn't change the balance (as far as I know) and is much simpler and more flexible and compatible with things made with the standard system.
The best way to do this is at the end of each segment. For example, during the first segment the players are being chased down a large market square. They manage to get half the number of successes needed for a total victory, so at the end of the segment you describe them vastly outrun the hobgoblins. In section 2 they are moving through a winding series of alleyways. They don't do as well in this section, so you mention that the party is almost there but the hobgoblins are started to gain again. The third segment is a straight dash towards freedom, and you describe the final results at the end.
Use the segments as midpoints points to change the scene to keep the challenge dynamic, and give the party updates on how they are doing. As another example, in a social challenge, have the opposing party's attitude change at the end of each segment. After segment one if the party is doing well, have the person attitude becomes a little friendlier. If they started out poorly, have him become less interested.
I gave this some more thoughts and here is my solution:
(For a 5 players group) A skill challenge can be lost after the 1st segment, if the players are unable to achive 1 success or if the players are unable to aquire 3 successes after the 2nd segment. (I would call it a partial victory if they aquire 2 successes).
Not every skill challenge can be lost early, but things like a chase definatly can.
I gave this some more thoughts and here is my solution:
(For a 5 players group) A skill challenge can be lost after the 1st segment, if the players are unable to achive 1 success or if the players are unable to aquire 3 successes after the 2nd segment. (I would call it a partial victory if they aquire 2 successes).
Not every skill challenge can be lost early, but things like a chase definatly can.
An interesting idea. I will run some math on that and consider it as an optional rule in my next version.
Found out about your Obsidian system, Stalker, 2 days ago and I really liked it. My players for today's session loved it -and we don't even play 4th edition yet-. Congrats on a great addition to the game!
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It's a good system, reminds me a bit of the White Wolf storyteller system. One thing that could do with a change is the rather odd DC distribution (levels 10-13 are all 24, then it jumps up to 26).
How about 18+(level/2) (rounded down) +1 if paragon, +2 if epic?
That gives the same range but can be worked out in your head.
I have recieved some notes from people asking me if I was doing any more updates to Obsidian.
Just letting everyone know, my work has been killer busy the last month, but it has started to slow down now so I am getting back to work on it. I hope to have Version 1.2 out in a few weeks.
I have recieved some notes from people asking me if I was doing any more updates to Obsidian.
Just letting everyone know, my work has been killer busy the last month, but it has started to slow down now so I am getting back to work on it. I hope to have Version 1.2 out in a few weeks.
One thing that I have been mulling over is why not just keep the complexity and number of successes from the DMG, just remove the before 3 failures? This way, Obsidian can be seamlessly integrated into existing modules, with no fuss at all!
Just have a little "X characters needed for complexity Y" and you're golden!
One thing that I have been mulling over is why not just keep the complexity and number of successes from the DMG, just remove the before 3 failures? This way, Obsidian can be seamlessly integrated into existing modules, with no fuss at all!
Just have a little "X characters needed for complexity Y" and you're golden!
-EF
I am doing something similar in my combat skill challenge section. Basically I am taking out the 3 round scenario for combat skill challenges.
First, this is awesome. It fixes my major gripe about the unerrata'ed RAW system (the party as their own worst enemy, incenting low-skill characters to sit back and watch).
Suggestions and questions:
1) I think ability checks should be at -5 to the DC. An ability check is otherwise very much worse than a skill check and almost certainly has fewer modifiers at high levels; skill challenges with Strength as the primary would suffer greatly under the normal DC. Or does your mathematical analysis already account for this?
2) You know the +2 bonus for creativity and role-playing? Does your mathematical analysis expect the DM to hand out a certain number of those, and how many? Otherwise, I would expect a group that is role-playing well and getting many +2 bonuses for it to succeed a lot more than a group that isn't -- which seems like a good thing to me.
3) A crude solution for Aid Another: If the DM awards you a +2 bonus for creativity/role-playing, you may, if it seems appropriate, give that bonus to someone else for their check. For example, in a Diplomacy encounter, A'Laric the dwarven fighter has no relevant skills and a Charisma penalty. So Miles the Warlord makes a speech about what an awesome dwarven master pimp A'Laric is. The DM is impressed and offers Miles a +2 bonus, but being a team player, Miles passes that off to A'Laric, who needs all the help he can get.
4) I agree with the sentiment that the XP should be based somehow on the # of players. I'd make it equal to the XP value of a monster of that level x the number of players. So for a 5-person challenge, it's worth 5 monsters, which is the same as a complexity-5 challenge. Simple and efficient.
5) I personally would only award half XP for a partial victory, since in my experience challenge encounters tend to consume fewer party resources than combat encounters and be way less risky (fail a combat challenge and you often get a total party wipe; there's less on the line for failing a skill challenge, especially with partial victories within reach for most groups).
6) I understand some people want the system to be more complex. My advice to you is not to do this. Its simplicity is its strength. If anything, wait to see what sort of variations people come up with, and what works, and gradually incorporate them into the system. I would say than any optional rule more complex than Going for Broke is probably not worth it right now.
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