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I like the general idea of what you’re trying to do and love the formatting and flavor text; however your class represents a significant amount of power creep. You claim to be trying to create a hybrid class, but in the end you gave the class the best of both worlds; great Defender abilities and great Striker Abilities. You took next to no abilities away from the Fighter and just added lots of Ranger abilities and powers to the Fighter concept.
One of your primary concerns seems to be the lack of AC in a light armor class. There is no need for the +3 to AC you gave them under Fencer Combat Talent. You are aware that a DEX or INT based character in Hide will have nearly the same AC as a character in Plate Armor (assuming all else is equal). There is a thread on the Wizards forum that explores the maximum Defense scores that covers this pretty well, but their forums seem down at this time. A Character with a starting DEX of 20 in Hide ends up with an AC of 35 at level 30 (Level-15, Hide-5, DEX-8, Enhancement-6) while a character in Plate ends up with an AC of 35 at level 30 (Level-15, Plate 14, Enhancement-6). Assuming you were actually trying to get the highest AC possible I’m pretty sure (but not 100%) that Hide would be your choice (Pit Fighter +1, Demigod +1, Heavy Shield +2, and Shield Specialization or Armor Mastery +1 for a Theoretical Cap of 40). Add of course you get this high AC without the penalties that come from Heavy Armor.
I think a simpler way to accomplish the class your after is to take the Fighter class and make a few simple changes.
1st) Switch any reference of STR with DEX and vice versa. 2nd) Switch any reference of WIS with CHA and vice versa. 3rd) Give them four skills and add Acrobatics, Bluff, and Diplomacy to the Skill List 4th) Change Bonuses to Defense to: Fortitude +1, Reflex +1 5th) Remove Chainmail, Scale, and Heavy Shield from the Armor Proficiencies 6th) Add all those new Fencer feats and Paragon paths (Need to change Attributes, for some reason they are still STR based) 7th) Change all the fighter flavor text to the stuff you wrote for the Fencer
These changes will make a solid Swashbuckler in the vein you’re looking for. However if this still isn’t enough you can still add in a few Ranger Exploits changed to reflex the DEX and CHA attributes and the single weapon focus. This will certainly result in power creep, but should be kept reasonably under control if you limit it to the guidelines set by the Multi-Class Feats (aka no more than one ranger exploit per category At-Will/ Encounter/Daily/Utility).
Creating the Two-Weapon Fighter/Dervish is even easier. Simply give the Ranger class the same treatment, minus steps 4 and 5. The two-weapon fighter won’t have the same stickiness of the Swashbuckler, but I honestly don’t think they should from a flavor or a mechanics point of view. The two-weapon fighter is sacrificing some hit points and challenge feature for a lot more damage. However the simple change of STR -> DEX will definitely make for a higher AC than your normal two-weapon fighting ranger (aka power creep). Again you can convert some fighter exploits (following the same guidelines) but in this case I don’t think it will be as much of a problem. Secondly if you really feel the need for more defender type qualities take the Pathfinder Paragon class (rewriting the flavor of course) it brings plenty of it, despite the name. I don’t know if this is the type of feedback you were looking for, but it is what it is.
By the way I really do like the Blade Bravado and Blademaster classes, they defiantly give the fighter a very unique feel. And balance wise they’re on par with the more powerful WotC Paragon Classes. It’s just so much easier to balance a Paragon class than an entire base class, and in the end it changes your character’s flavor almost as much.
The Riposte at will power is too good. Every fencer would take it. Compare it to the rogues riposte strike (an at will power of the same level). The rogue class focuses on counter-attack type abilities and is therefore a valid comparison. The rogue must use a power and hit with an attack in order to be allowed a riposte strike. This limits the rogue to one riposte a turn, and only against a target he hits with his riposte strike attack. Your fencer doesn't have to use any power to get his riposte. He can use a daily, a second wind, or a different attack and still get a riposte against an enemy. Your fencer can make a riposte against everyone who attacks him, while the rogue can only make one riposte, against his target. I suggest you make it only work when an enemy you have marked attacks you, or you use it as a minor action and choose a single target, then get a counter attack if they attack you.
You should re-write the weapon and shield type to only give the benefit to light shields, since they resemble bucklers closely. The fencer could abuse the feature by taking heavy shield proficiency and now having +3 from his shield, and further by taking shield specialization. I don't think it fits the flavor of a fencer to tote a heavy shield .
The +2 bonus with leather armor means that the player will be a little better off than hide armor when compared to other striker types. At most levels the player's AC will be 1 point higher than other strikers that have hide armor proficiency or players in plate armor (not including shields, feats etc). In fact, this player has essentially the highest AC of any class if they max out their dexterity score (AC 19 at first level, AC 23 at 15th, AC 26 at 30th from only armor and stat bonus). If you take a modestly high starting DEX score of only 18, then you will have as much AC as a full plate wearing character. This does not agree with your description of the fencer as "not as heavily armored as a true defender". I don't think it is a game balance issue.
This character seems to have more fighter than ranger features. Unlike other strikers, the fencer does not gain bonus damage dice on most turns. You do not have the fighters large array of proficiencies, but you get the same bonus from light shields as others do from heavy, and your leather armor is as good as his plate mail if not better. You even have the fighter's full marking ability and get the fighters +1 to attacks.
As far as I can see, this class is a defender. You have exchanged the fighters 'combat superiority' for a choice between the rangers two weapon fighting style or a shield style. You have about the same AC as a fighter, but with lighter armor, for increased mobility. The shield and sword style is similar to the guardian fighter (a defense based defender) and the two weapon style is similar to the great weapon fighter (an offense based fighter). The great weapon fighter is not a striker/defender, it is just a defender. I also think your fencer is a defender, not a striker.
The other difference between this class and the fighter is the powers.
Some are similar to the rogue/ranger skill choices, but they do not have the same damage dealing capabilities as those classes. Powers like bolstering strike are important for your fencer since the HP recovery is necessary for a defender. I like how you take powers from the fighter list and they still work for the fencer's weapons. I suggest you take this a step further and write up some powers that gain benefits from the various fencer weapons.
it was a cheap joke, no need to take it seriously.
Though duelist does have some merit.
anyways, I should take the time to read v3 before posting anything serious
Wasn’t taken that way. It’s just that the name has already been a point of contention.
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Originally Posted by generalhenry
the highest AC in the game isn't from godplate. It's from hide +maxed stat.
I’m not sure where you are getting that. What am I missing?
• Highest Stat bonus = +9 (at 28) [starting 20 + 8 increases]
• Elderhide (+5) + Stat (+9) + Enhancement (+6) = +20
• Godplate (+14) + Enhancement (+6) = +20
• Starleather (+4) + Stat (+9) + Enhancement (+6) = +19
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Originally Posted by generalhenry
1st level plate + shield = ac 20
1st level 20 dex + leather + shield = ac 22!
Again, I’m not sure where you are getting this.
• Plate (+8) + Heavy Shield (+2) = +10 (20 AC)
• Leather (+2) + Light Shield (+1) + Stat (+5) + Class (+2) = +10 (20 AC)
(They only gain proficiency in light shield.)
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Originally Posted by generalhenry
the fencer can two points higher than that
but that's 30th, how about 1st level
By my account its 1 more.
However, these points do bring up a good issue. The class isn’t supposed to be higher AC. On the original pass, the question would the class be able to stand up as a hybrid defender with lower AC. This will mean the removal of the +2 AC bonus.
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Originally Posted by generalhenry
Combat challenge steps on fighter toes, Two-Blade Fighting Style steps on ranger toes.
That was part of the point in the initial design process. The class is supposed to be a hybrid Defender / Striker made 95% purely from already existing powers in the PHB.
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Originally Posted by generalhenry
Riposte is unprecedented and overpowered.
Please quantify this. Why is it overpowered?
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Originally Posted by generalhenry
Sweeping Strike is blatantly overpowered, more damage than Dire Wolverine Strike AND better class feature synergy since you get to mark them all.
Sweeping Strike is a typo. Should be 1[W].
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Originally Posted by generalhenry
er... Sweeping Strikes? when you have an ability called Sweeping Strike
Good catch. When doing so many new names they all start to blur.
Renamed = Sweeping Assault?
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Originally Posted by generalhenry
immune to fear and charm effects…
!!! way more powerful in 4E
This is exactly the same as the 16th level Justicar path power “Just Shelter” so it is not unprecedented.
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Originally Posted by generalhenry
Emboldening Bravado, a Leader ability? why?
Why not? It is fitting to the style of the paragon path. Other classes dip into other roles as well. Any suggestions for something else?
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Originally Posted by generalhenry
It's a fighter with the best TWF ranger abilities added in.
Again, that was part of the point… making a hybrid defender/striker from the existing classes and powers and making it a unique class rather than the lame attempts at multiclassing this archetype.
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Originally Posted by erik_the_guy
The Riposte at will power is too good. {snip}
That is a useful summary. What if I go back to the original concept (building using existing powers), and simply make it an adaptation of the Rogue version.
RIPOSTE – Fencer Attack 1 With a calculated strike, you leave your foe vulnerable to an adroit riposte should he dare attack you. At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action – Melee weapon Requirement: You must be wielding a fencer weapon. Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. If the target attacks you before the start of your next turn, you make your riposte against the target as an immediate interrupt: a Strength vs. AC attack that deals 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier and riposte to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.
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Originally Posted by erik_the_guy
You should re-write the weapon and shield type to only give the benefit to light shields, since they resemble bucklers closely. The fencer could abuse the feature by taking heavy shield proficiency and now having +3 from his shield, and further by taking shield specialization. I don't think it fits the flavor of a fencer to tote a heavy shield.
Good point. I’ll change this to explicitly call out light shields. The same goes for any powers that require a shield.
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Originally Posted by erik_the_guy
RE: On armor…
I’ve gotten the same comments from GH, so I’m dropping the entire “Fencer’s Combat Style” class feature.
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Originally Posted by erik_the_guy
This character seems to have more fighter than ranger features. {snip}
The other difference between this class and the fighter is the powers.
Some are similar to the rogue/ranger skill choices, but they do not have the same damage dealing capabilities as those classes.
The actual powers are split pretty equal 50/50. The loss of the bonus to armor and the bonus to Attack, reduces the closeness to fighter. To make them more striker (more 50/50) that would require to add a slight damage increase.
What I am currently thinking of is the following:
PRECISE STRIKE
Once per round, against an enemy you have marked and when you are using a fencer weapon, an attack you make against that enemy deals extra damage if the attack hits. You decide whether to apply the extra damage after making the damage roll. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases. Level – Extra Damage 1st – 10th -- +1d6 11th – 20th -- +2d6 21st – 30th -- +3d6
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Originally Posted by erik_the_guy
I like how you take powers from the fighter list and they still work for the fencer's weapons. I suggest you take this a step further and write up some powers that gain benefits from the various fencer weapons.
Any suggestions? I had intentionally not done, this as I was trying to stick to the design philosophy of building this Hybrid almost exclusively from the existing powers in the PHB. I hadn’t wanted to get into writing new powers. Riposte is a perfect example of why, which only came about as people had directed the class to a new power for that slot.
Location: Mumbai; Always copy my stuff to the wiki.
Posts: 580
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I’m not sure where you are getting that. What am I missing?
demigod, max stat is +10
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(They only gain proficiency in light shield.)
I assumed they would take heavy shield (they have no reason why they shouldn't)
So:
Leather (+2) + Heavy Shield (+2) + sword and shield (+1) + Stat (+5) + Class (+2) = +12 (22 AC)
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Why is it overpowered?
It's an at will interrupt. Normally all at wills are standard actions, and all interrupts are at least encounter powers. It's an essential part of that whole economy of actions thing. In short, it gives them too many attacks.
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and simply make it an adaptation of the Rogue version.
It's much better that way.
ok so to step back a second, it's a fighter/ranger dual class?
I hadn't taken into account the demigod since its the exception rather than the rule (especially once there are more epic destinies to choose from).
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Originally Posted by generalhenry
It's an at will interrupt. Normally all at wills are standard actions, and all interrupts are at least encounter powers. It's an essential part of that whole economy of actions thing. In short, it gives them too many attacks.
...
It's much better that way.
This makes sense now. So noted.
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Originally Posted by generalhenry
ok so to step back a second, it's a fighter/ranger dual class?
A hybrid Defender / Striker based on the fighter and dual wielding (which is currently only ranger), so yes in a manner of speaking its a dual-class.
From the original post... "This is an exercise in basic class design using strictly a combination of elements of fighter and ranger to create a lightly armored, mobile, hybrid defender / striker that focuses on allowing for two basic builds –sword and shield (swashbuckler) and two-sword (duelist)."
Location: Mumbai; Always copy my stuff to the wiki.
Posts: 580
ok so it's fighter ranger dual class with light armor pasted on
(TWF rangers often use scale armor)
Personally I think the swashbuckler and the duelist are better made as rogues
rapier + light shield and rapier + dagger
While sneaking and back stabbing are the normal ways to play a rogue. All you really need is combat advantage. Feinting, standing on tables, clever distractions. And with fighter multiclass you can even offtank.
fighter/ranger and ranger/fighter already exist too.
Another problem is that you class optimizes around duel wielding rapiers, which is awkward.
Now the basic goal is a TWF class other than the ranger, and I think you're heading down the wrong path since the rapier + dagger fencing style is well enough created with the rogue class.
So stepping back, I do think there's room for more than one TWF class, but I don't think fencer is that class. I think barbarian is the class, a THF and TWF brute.
I don't know exactly how an Interrupt in response to being hit works. I would instead make this an Immediate Interrupt to being targeted by the attack, or add extra text "if this movement takes you out of range of the original effect, the attack misses you (if the attack has effects on a miss, those still apply)." And between those choices, I would vote for the first because it's a lot cleaner.
Overall this class has too much AC, even for a defender. Maybe if the heroic tier feat was a +1 feat bonus so it doesn't stack with the paragon tier armor specialization feats (do you really want rogue and rangers cross-classing into this just to pick up an extra +1 AC?).
This class is rather moot now that we know we are getting a TWF Fighter option in Martial Power. That, along with some rogue multiclassing (or vice-versa) should be enough to pull off a Fencer/Duelist style build.
The Sweeping Strike is the same as the Dire Wolverine Strike but it does more damage. I would suggest lowering it down to 1[w] + Dex to bring it into line.
I would suggest going with the original Riposte (similar to the Rogue’s ability). The immediate reaction at will seems a bit powerful.
Anyway, thanks for the class. I like the concept, and I would love to play this type of character in a campaign. Keep it up.
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