New Race for Review - Minotaur (civilized)

[Khaalis]

Here is the first draft of a minotaur race for players. Comments appreciated.

Here is the quick and dirty, PDF contains the full details of the racial feats, paragon path, etc.

MINOTAUR (Civilized)
Proud, honorable, nomadic warriors with a deep natural connection to their primal nature and a love of physical pursuits and competition.

RACIAL TRAITS

Average Height: 7’ 1” – 7’ 5”
Average Weight: 320 – 350 lb.

Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Charisma
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal

Languages: Minotaur, By Background
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Nature

Goring Charge: You may use goring charge as an encounter power.

Minotaur Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the battleaxe and the greataxe.

Oversized: You can use weapons of your size or one size larger than you as if they were your own size.

GORING CHARGE -- Minotaur Racial Power
You charge the enemy and gore them with your horns.
Encounter <> Weapon
Standard Action -- Melee weapon
Target: Target: One creature
Attack: Strength +2 vs. AC
Increase to +4 at 11th level, +6 at 21st level.
Special: You must charge as part of this attack.
Hit: 1d6 + Strength modifier damage, and the target is knocked prone.
Increase damage to 2d6 + Strength modifier at 11th level, 3d6 + Strength modifier at 21st level.


Minotaurs are brawny and tough creatures unafraid of throwing their weight around in a fight. They are highly physical and competitive, and enjoy combat, building, sailing and trading both amongst themselves and with others. Nomadic in culture, Minotaurs wander the world in search of wisdom, challenges and adventure. They are a highly proud and honorable race that are generally peaceful but will fight for the right cause or merely for competition.

Play a minotaur if you want…
✦ To by physically powerful
✦ To be a proud heir to strong and wise heritage.
✦ To be a member of a race that favors the fighter, paladin ranger, and warlord classes (as well as later released Primal classes).

Change Log: 23Jul08
* Various grammar/editing fixes.
* Various new feats and tweaks/corrections.

Change Log: 14Jul08
* “Gore Proficiency #2” to “Gore Focus”.
* Some grammar and clarifications in descriptive ecology text. (long version only)

Change Log: 11Jul08
• Changed ”Ability Score: +2 Intelligence” to ”+2 Charisma”.
• Dropped "Gore"
• Reduced Height/Weight to match MM stats.

Change Log: 07Jul08
• Corrected some spelling/grammatical errors.
• Changed Mighty Blow feat prerequisites to STR 17.
• Changed ”Ability Score: +2 Wisdom or Charisma” to ”+2 Intelligence”.
• Added Direction Sense heroic feat.
• Dropped Minotaur Weapon Training feat.
• Dropped Maze Immunity feat.

Newest Revisions are Attached - 11Jul08
• Short version - 2 page PHB style entry + Feats + Paragon path.
• Full version - 2 page PHB style entry + Feats + Paragon path + Homebrew world Ecology.

[thesquidasaur]

oh, ok.
so you just copied it from the mm. . .

[Dragonhelm]

Where did that first piece of artwork come from? That's slick!

[Khaalis]

Originally Posted by thesquidasaur

oh, ok.
so you just copied it from the mm. . .

Umm.... was this meant as a troll?

The only thing taken directly from the MM is their Goring Charge and Oversized abilities and making "Ferocity" a racial feat, unless you count "Medium size, Normal vision and standard base 6 speed" as copying.

[Khaalis]

Originally Posted by Dragonhelm

Where did that first piece of artwork come from? That's slick!

Do a Google Images search for "Minotaur". Its on the first page of results (5th from the left, second row) for me.

[BartD]

I think it looks fine, I'd probably allow it. Just three comments:
1. Why "+2 Wisdom or Charisma" when wisdom is mentioned so many places? Also dragonborn already give Str/Cha. So I'd remove the charisma option.
2. Why is Minotaur Weapon Training stronger than the dwarven variant? Why not just +2?
3. Is the race too good for fighters?

Oh, and I like the flavor

[Terwox]

Battle courage says +5 vs. saves against feat rather than fear.

Minotaur weapon training should be +2 rather than +3 if you want to stay close to original intent. They will get extra damage due to oversized already.

Maze immunity is a terrible feat. Nothing in the MM uses maze.

Hulking brute seems overpowered with untyped bonuses for combat advantage. Does anything in the PHB compare? This stacks with anything...

For charging action, does charge only not end your turn if you use an AP to do it?

Trample is a great idea.

The editing and presentation are fantastic by the way!

[Khaalis]

Originally Posted by BartD

I think it looks fine, I'd probably allow it. Just three comments: {snip} Oh, and I like the flavor

Thanks.

1. Why "+2 Wisdom or Charisma" when wisdom is mentioned so many places? Also dragonborn already give Str/Cha. So I'd remove the charisma option.

I wanted them to be slightly less pigeonholed than just saying one or the other. With the ability to choose Wis or Cha they have more class flexibility since CHA is a tertiary trait for Warlord, a secondary trait for Paladin and primary for Warlock. Wisdom is only really primary for cleric and tertiary for ranger. I was also going off the general assumption of how people treated the Half-Elf by most house-rules I see giving them flexibility in their second stat bonus.

2. Why is Minotaur Weapon Training stronger than the dwarven variant? Why not just +2?

The primary difference here is melee vs. ranged. Dwarves get a +2 bonus with all Axes and Hammers (this includes melee and ranged weapons). The Minotaur does not. Instead they gain a +3 bonus but only with melee weapons. I specifically wanted it to be slightly different, even though its the same basic weapon groups. This way they still feel like 2 very different feats. Does +3 seem broken?

3. Is the race too good for fighters?

Personally I don't think so. Not any better than a dragonborn or dwarf. But then again, thats why I am asking for feedback.

[Khaalis]

Thanks for the comments.

Originally Posted by Terwox

Battle courage says +5 vs. saves against feat rather than fear.

Thanks for the typo catch. I'll get that fixed.

Minotaur weapon training should be +2 rather than +3 if you want to stay close to original intent. They will get extra damage due to oversized already.

From above...
The primary difference here is melee vs. ranged. Dwarves get a +2 bonus with all Axes and Hammers (this includes melee and ranged weapons). The Minotaur does not. Instead they gain a +3 bonus but only with melee weapons. I specifically wanted it to be slightly different, even though its the same basic weapon groups. This way they still feel like 2 very different feats.

Does +3 seem broken when compared to not being able to use it on ranged weapons?

Maze immunity is a terrible feat. Nothing in the MM uses maze.

Except the Maze spell. Granted its highly situational but I figured including it for completeness might be a good idea. If its really not, I'll drop it.

Hulking brute seems overpowered with untyped bonuses for combat advantage. Does anything in the PHB compare? This stacks with anything...

What do you mean by "anything"? How would you improve the feat?

The original idea came as an alteration of "Back to the Wall". Perhaps keying off combat advantage is too far less situational than being adjacent to a wall.

What about making stipulate combat advantage provided by a creature smaller than you?

For charging action, does charge only not end your turn if you use an AP to do it?

PHB p.287-288

Charge is a standard action and carries the stipulation:
"No Further Actions: After you resolve a charge attack, you can’t take any further actions this turn, unless you spend an action point to take an extra action."

Trample is a great idea.

Thanks. Wish I could take credit for it but its just a variant of the Fighter Iron Vanguard's Paragon Path feature "Trample the Fallen".

The editing and presentation are fantastic by the way!

Thanks. I take that as a huge compliment as I've been trying hard to get these to match up to the style of the PHB as best I can.

[latinoosvaldo]

I think you mean brave instead of brace under Minotaur Characteristics, right?

And I think STR 13 for Mighty Swing a too low pre-requisite (specially for a race that earns +2 racial bonus). I would've made it 15 (and maube CON 15 also). It´s a very strong feat that allows any attack power he uses (almost) to simulate the effect of a Tide of Iron or other powers that have that feature as a differential. I think it would also be wise to limit this somehow (maybe restricting to melee basic attacks, or making it work only against defenders that are smaller than the minotaur.

Otherwise, the text and the editing is really great (ti's a shame, tough, that the main image shows only a male minotaur, but that's how life is). You could cut it and stretch it a little (maybe to copy the class image effect on the page), just to clean the empty space below the picture.

[Khaalis]

Originally Posted by latinoosvaldo

I think you mean brave instead of brace under Minotaur Characteristics, right?

Yup. Thanks for the typo catch. I need new eyes to edit since I miss stuff after having stared at it so long.

And I think STR 13 for Mighty Swing a too low pre-requisite (specially for a race that earns +2 racial bonus). I would've made it 15 (and maube CON 15 also). It´s a very strong feat that allows any attack power he uses (almost) to simulate the effect of a Tide of Iron or other powers that have that feature as a differential. I think it would also be wise to limit this somehow (maybe restricting to melee basic attacks, or making it work only against defenders that are smaller than the minotaur.

I can see STR 15. As for only on smaller creatures, that would definitely reduce its usefulness.

Would this be better as a Paragon feat? Or would STR 15 and "on basic attacks" be enough to balance it?

Otherwise, the text and the editing is really great (ti's a shame, tough, that the main image shows only a male minotaur, but that's how life is). You could cut it and stretch it a little (maybe to copy the class image effect on the page), just to clean the empty space below the picture.

I've tried to edit the art and they don't seem to work so well. Most of the PHB art was specifically drawn to fit that space, but most art is drawn to be more a classic square palate or page shape. Also the only male/female art I could find were some campy (or X rated) WoW Taurens, so that was a no go. Most art tends to be that way, and I cant afford to commission art. lol

[generalhenry]

Does +3 seem broken when compared to not being able to use it on ranged weapons?

very yes. Throwing hammers and axes are weak weapons.

That and dwarves don't have +2 str or oversized weapons.

Nothing in the MM uses maze.

how about an unfailing sense of orientation?

I wanted them to be slightly less pigeonholed than just saying one or the other.

yes, but CHA for Bull men?

[Khaalis]

Originally Posted by generalhenry

very yes. Throwing hammers and axes are weak weapons.

But ranged capability isn't weak. However, I can see the point. However making it +2 on melee axes and hammers then makes it less powerful than the dwarven version. Any suggestions?

how about an unfailing sense of orientation?

How would you word this, since nothing else like it really exists? Direction sense is basically a Nature check (common DC). Something like this?

"You have an innate sense of direction and automatically succeed all Nature checks made to determine direction."

yes, but CHA for Bull men?

Charisma measures your force of personality, persuasiveness, and leadership - not your looks. So why not CHA?

[generalhenry]

Any suggestions?

drop it.

Dwarves and eladrin have the feats as crutches as they would other wise be wimpy in melee. Minotaurs do not need the any melee damage boast.

"You have an innate sense of direction and automatically succeed all Nature checks made to determine direction."

sounds fine

force of personality, persuasiveness, and leadership

again, bull men? Minotaurs are best known for being exiled onto islands and hanging out in mazes.

[Khaalis]

Originally Posted by generalhenry

drop it.
Dwarves and eladrin have the feats as crutches as they would other wise be wimpy in melee. Minotaurs do not need the any melee damage boast.

That works. Makes sense after the comments. Getting proficiency in them is enough to show their proclivity for them.

sounds fine

I'll get that added in. I also think this should drop it back to a heroic feat.

again, bull men? Minotaurs are best known for being exiled onto islands and hanging out in mazes.

Only in Greek mythology. That stereotype doesn't match the fluff of the race as written. These minotaurs are more like a cross between (dare I say it...) a WoW Tauren and a Krynnish Minotaur. More outgoing, tribal, nomadic, traders and seagoers.

[generalhenry]

Only in Greek mythology.

fair enough. Though still I'd skip the stat choice. They're flexible enough without it.

[generalhenry]

hmm, I just realized why you where thinking cha. You're stepping on the risi's toes.

Int. Really it fits them.

[thesquidasaur]

Originally Posted by Khaalis

Umm.... was this meant as a troll?

The only thing taken directly from the MM is their Goring Charge and Oversized abilities and making "Ferocity" a racial feat, unless you count "Medium size, Normal vision and standard base 6 speed" as copying.

oh no. i am sorry.
i only saw goring charge. i meant no disrespect.
um, yeah. i just saw the pdf though and it is really good.

[Wonka]

I like it, fleshed out from the MM Minotaur and I think it works well. Just a few comments.

1) On page 3, the feat box has the Epic Tier feat labeled as Paragon ( ie there are two paragon feat boxes )

2) As has been stated, Mighty Swing is amazing, should definitely have a steeper str requirement, 15 or 16 seem fair.

3) As also has been said, the Maze Immunity feat seems practically useless, and really only seems to support the fluff.

Other than those (mosty have been previously stated) comments, I like the feel and especially the look of the thing, you id a very nice job of making it match the PHB!

[Lokathor]

4e is designed to only have 10 languages ever because they wanted to cut down on language barriers being a source of problems for PCs. You should probably list something like "Giant, Common" for groups that aren't using expanded language rules.