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Personally I feel that Master of Your Trade is a touch to powerful it makes it pointless to buy new skills when you can just buy 2 feats to get a +4 to all unknown skills as opposed to taking Skill Training twice and getting trained in 2 unknown skills (a +5). Instead maybe just +1 to all unknown skills which stacks with Jack of all Trade.
Thanks for the comments!
Don't forget that Master of Your Trade only applies to untrained class skills, not to all untrained skills. This means that Jack of All Trades would give an Historian +2 to 9 different skills, while Master of Your Trade would only give an Historian +2 to 4 different skills (raising only those 4 skills to a +4 if both feats were taken at the same time).
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingMystic
(regarding Aberrant Master...) I also don't think they need their own power type since starlock tap into the same type of energies and use arcane I feel that arcane works for these. Needs some kind of implement to keep these powers in line with all of your other ones.
Of couse, the "alien" power source is just flavor since power sources have no actual impact in the game. Anyone who prefers that it be Arcane can certainly change it with zero effort.
That said... the reason I went with a new power source is that I want aberrants to feel very different (well... I want them to feel alien actually ), and I just don't get that feeling off of slapping arcane on it. As a secondary benefit, it also helps distinguish Aberrant Master from Arcane Historian.
Don't forget that Master of Your Trade only applies to untrained class skills, not to all untrained skills. This means that Jack of All Trades would give an Historian +2 to 9 different skills, while Master of Your Trade would only give an Historian +2 to 4 different skills (raising only those 4 skills to a +4 if both feats were taken at the same time).
I some how missed that never mind then it is perfect as written
Quote:
Of couse, the "alien" power source is just flavor since power sources have no actual impact in the game. Anyone who prefers that it be Arcane can certainly change it with zero effort.
That said... the reason I went with a new power source is that I want aberrants to feel very different (well... I want them to feel alien actually ), and I just don't get that feeling off of slapping arcane on it. As a secondary benefit, it also helps distinguish Aberrant Master from Arcane Historian.
The only reason I was concerned is I figure in future supplements they will start adding more feats and item to buff powers that are of a given type exclusively that's all. Aberents still need and implement or an increasing bonus to hit. I am looking forward to seeing what information they give us in the manual of the planes on hte far realm it has always been defiantly my favorite place to draw inisperation from
Last edited by WanderingMystic; 3rd August 2008 at 08:11 PM..
I Abberants still need an implement or an increasing bonus to hit...
True... I hate to use an implement, since that doesn't seem to tie into Aberrants in any way, so I'm thinking about an increasing bonus of +1 for every group of 5 levels. I.e., levels 11-15 get a +3, levels 16-20 get a +4, etc. That would put them on par with typical magic implements.
How about giving the aberrant masters some kind of graft that can serve as implement? A tentacle? A parasite? Maybe make it possible to choose from various kinds that offer different advantages and/or disadvantages?
Just a though. Felt it would fit with the very tentacle-ish aberrant theme.
I love the concept of grafts/parasites but for this class i would lean towards relics being used as an implement. Give these relics encounter or daily powers which cause them to mutate when activated (growing a tentacle or eye stalks ect...) That way you could keep several relics (figures of ancient and elder gods, lost manuscripts, twisted sculptures inscribed in lost tongues, glass skulls, idols, Sankara stones.)
Last edited by WanderingMystic; 4th August 2008 at 12:17 AM..
I love the concept of grafts/parasites but for this class i would lean towards relics being used as an implement. Give these relics encounter or daily powers which cause them to mutate when activated (growing a tentacle or eye stalks ect...) That way you could keep several relics (figures of ancient and elder gods, lost manuscripts, twisted sculptures inscribed in lost tongues, glass skulls, idols, Sankara stones.)
Ok, that's just creepy. Needless to say... I like it!
I was wondering if there have been any new developments with this class
Not much... I did update the Aberrant Master paragon path to have an Aberrant Mastery feature which gives it a bonus to attack and damage rolls with susurrations (to put it on par with classes that have implements). I didn't publish it yet because it was such a small change, and I wanted to see if our play-experience brought out more changes.
Here's the feature...
Aberrant Mastery (11th level): You gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls with susurrations, which increases as you advance in level:
Ultimately, I decided to go that route rather than use "relics" because I like the flavor of historical relics so much that I want to get a lot more use out of them than just as implements.
Has anyone else out there got experiences with this class to report?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferdil
wewantthewhipwhipwhipwhipwhipwhipwhipwhipwhip!
Enthusiastic, are we?
I wonder if the whip will show up in either the Adventurers Vault or the Martial Power book? I can imagine that both of those books will contain options that will provoke updates to this class.
__________________ It's about the people. It's always about the people.
I have allowed this class in a game I am running and have had one for the last month or so but I have started to implement lots of changes to the class. I have finished the class abilities and all 1st level powers and uploaded it as a pdf Historian alternate. I am very interested in your opinion on my changes. If my doing this offends you in any way then i will immediately remove my version for public viewing and just communicate with you via emails.
I have allowed this class in a game I am running and have had one for the last month or so but I have started to implement lots of changes to the class. I have finished the class abilities and all 1st level powers and uploaded it as a pdf Historian alternate. I am very interested in your opinion on my changes. If my doing this offends you in any way then i will immediately remove my version for public viewing and just communicate with you via emails.
It doesn't offend me at all! I appreciate your interest and enthusiasm. Of course, by posting it, you take the risk that I'll steal (err... adopt) some of your ideas.
I've read through what you have so far, and I've got a few questions and minor corrections for you (you're probably aware of some of these already):
Page 1: The "Build Options" line is still blank, even though you've added the cultural historian and the relic historian options.
Page 1: Practical Insight is missing from the list of class features.
Page 2: I like the fact that your approach to Esoteric Knowledge gives the character the ability to tap into other power sources starting at first level. Conversely, though, the character will only ever get one 'esoteric' power per day (as opposed to eventually getting one encounter attack, one daily attack and one utility).
* This approach also allows the Historian to use a different esoteric power every day -- in story terms I wouldn't have any problem rationalizing that, but it seems like a very high degree of flexibility for a 4e class.
* You may want to clarify the wording of "...you may use the power this round" so that it's clear when the power being invoked is one which lasts for more than one round, or which can be sustained.
* I'm curious to know why you don't want Paragon Path powers to be used this way. Just trying to preserve their uniqueness?
* You've made me realize that my version isn't including implements for the esoteric powers. I need to fix that.
Page 2: The "Relics" field of study gives the ability to identify magic items using a short rest rather than an extended rest. However, magic items are normally identified during a short rest (per the PHB). Are you using extended rests for this as a house rule in your game?
Page 3: Practical Insight says to determine the DC "...based off of their level." I assume the "their" in this line is "the creature"? BTW, the WotC errata for Insight now has us adding 1/2 the creature's level. Your wording might apply either way, but you may want to clarify.
* Just FYI... The Easy/Moderate/Hard DCs on DMG page 42 have been errata'ed, so getting the Practical Insight bonuses is easier than it would have been before. As a result, a character who is trained in the relevant skill will never fail an Easy check. If the skill uses an attribute that the character increases as they raise in level, the character will almost never fail a Moderate check (99%), and will make the vast majority of Hard checks.
* Historians who choose Practical Insight over Practical Knowledge will have a much easier time getting their bonuses (lower DCs). Conversely, I see that their bonuses only apply vs. humanoid creatures and the skill bonus part only applies to Charisma-based skills. (this is just an observation)
Page 4: For the Quit While You're Ahead power, would you want to add Practical Insight as an option to the Requirement line?
Page 5: Blinding Reprieve and Bewildering Lunge are out of alphabetical order.
I see that you added the build options (cultural/relic) to a couple of the encounter powers. Other than that, were there any changes to the powers? I didn't see any.
__________________ It's about the people. It's always about the people.
Last edited by Inlicere; 29th August 2008 at 03:18 PM..
Reason: formatting
It doesn't offend me at all! I appreciate your interest and enthusiasm. Of course, by posting it, you take the risk that I'll steal (err... adopt) some of your ideas.
By all means take anything you like after all you have inspired it.
I've read through what you have so far, and I've got a few questions and minor corrections for you (you're probably aware of some of these already):
Page 1: The "Build Options" line is still blank, even though you've added the cultural historian and the relic historian options.
An oversight on my part
Page 1: Practical Insight is missing from the list of class features.
An oversight on my part
Page 2: I like the fact that your approach to Esoteric Knowledge gives the character the ability to tap into other power sources starting at first level. Conversely, though, the character will only ever get one 'esoteric' power per day (as opposed to eventually getting one encounter attack, one daily attack and one utility).
* This approach also allows the Historian to use a different esoteric power every day -- in story terms I wouldn't have any problem rationalizing that, but it seems like a very high degree of flexibility for a 4e class.
The high degree of flexibility is what lead me to remove the one encounter, one daily and one utility in favor of giving you a daily power which lets you emulate an encounter power. Also note that this dose not replace one of your powers it is in addition to it. (so at 1st level you could use your 1st level encounter power and your 1st level daily power in one combat and still use Esoteric Knowledge giving you an extra encounter ability all be it once per day). Right now I am worried if it is a bit to powerful but I have the feeling that I want.
You may want to clarify the wording of "...you may use the power this round" so that it's clear when the power being invoked is one which lasts for more than one round, or which can be sustained.
Should I change it to state that you may activate that power this round do you think that fixes the confusion?
* I'm curious to know why you don't want Paragon Path powers to be used this way. Just trying to preserve their uniqueness?
To keep the feeling of each Paragon Path, I wanted Esoteric Knowledge to be you coming up with the right bit of knowledge at the right time instead of choosing to mimic the best ability of a paragon path.
* You've made me realize that my version isn't including implements for the esoteric powers. I need to fix that.
Page 2: The "Relics" field of study gives the ability to identify magic items using a short rest rather than an extended rest. However, magic items are normally identified during a short rest (per the PHB). Are you using extended rests for this as a house rule in your game?
This was based on an earlier suggestion , now I have to rethink this
Page 3: Practical Insight says to determine the DC "...based off of their level." I assume the "their" in this line is "the creature"? BTW, the WotC errata for Insight now has us adding 1/2 the creature's level. Your wording might apply either way, but you may want to clarify.
If you look at the revised DC chart in the DMG update using the opponents level as the DC produces a similar number to the knowledge check (a bit higher i think)
* Just FYI... The Easy/Moderate/Hard DCs on DMG page 42 have been errata'ed, so getting the Practical Insight bonuses is easier than it would have been before. As a result, a character who is trained in the relevant skill will never fail an Easy check. If the skill uses an attribute that the character increases as they raise in level, the character will almost never fail a Moderate check (99%), and will make the vast majority of Hard checks. I have read that and I am still debating if I like it or not, when they made the rogue class they wanted you to be able to get your bonus to damage at least 80% of the time, so I dont think its over powered even with the reduced DC * Historians who choose Practical Insight over Practical Knowledge will have a much easier time getting their bonuses (lower DCs). Conversely, I see that their bonuses only apply vs. humanoid creatures and the skill bonus part only applies to Charisma-based skills. (this is just an observation)
I realized that Practical Insight was easier since you could focus on one skill but you can only use it on huminoids and the skill bonus is only for Charisma-based skills (i also changed the defense to fort and will for practical insight) to balance this out
Page 4: For the Quit While You're Ahead power, would you want to add Practical Insight as an option to the Requirement line?
Yeah I need to add Practical Insight where ever it says Practical Knowledge.
Page 5: Blinding Reprieve and Bewildering Lunge are out of alphabetical order.
Thanks it always bugs me when that happens
I see that you added the build options (cultural/relic) to a couple of the encounter powers. Other than that, were there any changes to the powers? I didn't see any.
Test the waters was given +wisdom to damage. Other than that the only changed were to add the build options I only added the rest to get the full picture oft he recomended powers for each build. Relic Historian to focus on analizing an opponent weakneses. While Cultural Historian goad there opponents into acting rashly.
Last edited by WanderingMystic; 30th August 2008 at 08:05 AM..
I wanted the feeling of your Relic Historians to be more concerned about ancient treasures and lost ruins while Cultural Historians see out the peoples and customs of far off lands.
By the was if you didn't notice I added nature and insight and removed streetwise and stealth. My reasoning nature is a must if you want to use practical knowledge on any type of humanoid or to find your way through the wilderness to some remote lost temple or ruins. Insight was added for the cultural aspect and replaced streetwise, I figured the would be better at reading people to see if they were lying rather than carousing at the pub for info. I dropped stealth because I felt that if I added nature I had to drop something and this helps to distance them from rogues and rangers who both get it.
This is a very interesting class.
May I suggest powering up the 29th level dailies a bit. Most classes can stun, immobilize, remove a mark, and deal 5weapon or something like that.
A great class all in all.
This is a very interesting class.
May I suggest powering up the 29th level dailies a bit. Most classes can stun, immobilize, remove a mark, and deal 5weapon or something like that.
A great class all in all.
Thanks!
I'm going to review all of the powers now that the Martial Power supplement is out. I'm still waiting on my copy to arrive, but it seems likely that it will inspire some changes and additions to the class.
Stay tuned...
__________________ It's about the people. It's always about the people.
** I've updated the OP of this thread with this information, but here it is again:
The Historian is an adventuring class based off of characters like Indiana Jones, Lara Croft (Tomb Raider) and Flynn Carsen (The Librarian). It is a complete class, formatted in the same manner as the published WotC classes.
January 5th, 2009 -- A MAJOR update to the class has been posted, which has increased the PDF from 18 pages to 37 pages! The goal of this update was to add new build options, powers, paragon paths and feats to keep the Historian 'on par' with the published martial classes now that the Martial Powers book has been released. This update also incorporates some of the feedback received from these forums.
just posted some comments on woc forums the only problems i see so far are in a few feats otherwise i love all of the changes made.
More Aberrant Vestiges please or Cthulhu will come and devour you sanity
), and I just don't get that feeling off of slapping arcane on it. As a secondary benefit, it also helps distinguish Aberrant Master from Arcane Historian.
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