Class New Class: The Lancer

[Exen Trik]

Lemme nit-pick a bit:

Role - Yeah, I don't really see how this is a controller. I see a funny striker that is well armed, a little defenderish and that happens to get small area attacks. Neat, but not a controller in the least.

Key AbilitiesYou sure you want int? Kind of an odd fit for most of the powers fluff, and wisdom is supposed to be the polearm stat anyways.

Weapon Proficiencies - I see you gave them no ranged weapons, but ranged powers, thereby limiting them to thrown weapons. That's handy and all, but you should really put the intended weapon in the power requirements.

Roundabout Capability - No complaints, just want to say that's a cool defender-lite ability

Lancer Tactics - Just give them full stat bonuses, I don't think half-stats apply anywhere in 4e. It's right in line with other classes features anyway.

Spinning Strike - you meant a close burst, right? Regular bursts happen at range, and this doesn't sound like that at all. And it suddenly gets a str mod at level 21, which it shouldn't (and it's a bit too good then besides)
Piercing Thrust - I would really expect this (and some other powers) to use dex instead of int. This sounds like it should be polearm only. It also sounds like stabbing through one guy and poking the guy behind him... the fluff and mechanics don't match the name.
Burst Strike - Again with the stat bonus at epic.
Defensive Spin - instead of the power bonuses, it may be simpler to apply an additional stat to ac and reflex. I say Str works fine for this, or Wis if you went with implementing that stat.
Vertical Shot - Make this for Light or Heavy throwing weapons only, and state which uses what stat.

Encounter and Daily powers - Nothing in particular really catches my eye right now, but keywords are wonky and the half-stats need to go.


Also, NEEDS MORE JUMPING.

[WanderingMystic]

I just finished updating the PDF a lot of minor changes have been made

[ff6shadow]

Cynlas
Yeah, one tactic is intended. The lack of a statment that you need to pick one was an oversight.

Exen Trik
It doesn't have the damage output to be a striker, it isn't sticky enough to be a defender, and it cleary isn't a leader. It has low damage output area attacks, with multiple status effect abilities as well. Generally, controller is the only roll that fits that. Although the secondary role, which ever class has, is definetly Defender. He'll do in a pinch, but he crumples too easily to stay there long.

Intelligence applies to precision strike, which generally picks relies on unsuaul tactics and striking weak points, where as flurry of blows relies on dexterity to full multiple attacks and the best of the area attacks.

The goal of the ranged powers was to give a benefit to the only spear that was really left out, the javelin. With a few ranged powers scattered about, the javelin becomes a viable weapon for this class.

Lancer Tactics were given half stat as after the model of the warlord's tactical presence.

You may want to go over the powers again. I had a delayed update over here, becuase I figured the thread had been abandoned to the bottom of the heap. I've posted it now and the class is inline with the PDF again.

I do agree on the needs more jumping, but I fitting it in before paragon seemed to break out of the martial power source.

If you could mention the powers with wonky keywords, I'd appreciate it. Probably just typos.

WanderingMystic
You missed the removal of damage at epic on those two at-will powers.

[Exen Trik]

Originally Posted by ff6shadow

It doesn't have the damage output to be a striker, it isn't sticky enough to be a defender, and it cleary isn't a leader. It has low damage output area attacks, with multiple status effect abilities as well. Generally, controller is the only roll that fits that.

On the other hand, there are as many single target attacks as area ones, and dealing status effects in lieu of high damage is also a striker trait (see warlock). Another striker aspect is that even though the lancer has area effects, it depends on the lancer being close up and well positioned to take advantage of them. This is in contrast to the wizard, who generally works best when out of the fray, having mostly long range powers and being a far more vulnerable target.

Precision Strike is a pure striker power, it lets you wade through the battlefield with relative ease. Flurry of Blows is as much a striker ability as a defender one, as it helps deal damage.

The goal of the ranged powers was to give a benefit to the only spear that was really left out, the javelin. With a few ranged powers scattered about, the javelin becomes a viable weapon for this class.

Which is good, just be a little more explicit about that in the power requirements. Requirements of Javelin, Light or Heavy throwing should be added as appropriate.

Lancer Tactics were given half stat as after the model of the warlord's tactical presence.

Ah I had missed that. But in that case, it was adding a bonus to hit for powers that may likely be powerful dailies delivered with an action point, so some limiting was in order. But lancer tactics are very similar to the fighter and rogue abilities that have no such restriction.

I do agree on the needs more jumping, but I fitting it in before paragon seemed to break out of the martial power source.

Just keep it reasonable. A jumping themed at-will, with moving towards your target, but no stat bonus to damage seems appropriate.

If you could mention the powers with wonky keywords, I'd appreciate it. Probably just typos.

It's mostly about the ranged powers as I already mentioned. Close blasts and close bursts over 1 should require that the weapon have reach, or have different effects if the weapon does or does not. The sizes of those close bursts and class blasts need to have their areas defined, some not, and some have a +# on the line (typo I guess?)

[ff6shadow]

But even the warlock deals more damage than the wizard, lacks area attacks, and has a class feature buffering his damage.

And while the class works up close and personal as opposed to the wizard, it is more the nature of his weapon and the martial power source causing that. I don't beleive that a Controller absolutely has to stay off the front line, Arcane or not. I'm currently playing a very front line wizard. With good Constitution, a few feats towards armor and using alot of blasts, I do fine on the front.

The ranged power were left open like that as a nod towards being multiclass friendly. If a rogue wants to multiclass over here, he can make use of most of the powers, including the ranged ones becuase they are left open.

Good idea for a jumping at-will. Working similar to the Rogue's At-Will, it doesn't even need to lose stat damage.

I'll take that point about full stat into consideration. I'll probably take your advice and change it.


As I recall, unless there were typos is that most of the Blasts and Burst were either range 1, weapon range, or weapon range +1.

Meanin a long sword is
Close Burst 1
Close Burst 1
and Close Burst 2

Where as a long spear would be
Close Burst 1
Close Burst 2
and Close Burst 3

[Exen Trik]

Originally Posted by ff6shadow

But even the warlock deals more damage than the wizard, lacks area attacks, and has a class feature buffering his damage.

A little more here, a little less there. I say this is just a different approach to being striker, with a controller bent.

I'm currently playing a very front line wizard. With good Constitution, a few feats towards armor and using alot of blasts, I do fine on the front.

A controller emulating a striker, in other words. But thats by customization rather than design, the lancer has that kind of build by default. With a good constitution, toughness and an armor feat or two it becomes at least as good a defender as any striker can.

...You know, I'm starting to think you have an honest to goodness hybrid here, it's very hard to define one way or another.

The ranged power were left open like that as a nod towards being multiclass friendly. If a rogue wants to multiclass over here, he can make use of most of the powers, including the ranged ones becuase they are left open.

Just have the Dex based ranged powers require a javelin or light throwing, and the Str ones heavy throwing. Done.

Good idea for a jumping at-will. Working similar to the Rogue's At-Will, it doesn't even need to lose stat damage.

My idea was to give it further movement then the rogues power, but I suppose having to move closer might be enough of a trade off.

I'll take that point about full stat into consideration. I'll probably take your advice and change it.

As I recall, unless there were typos is that most of the Blasts and Burst were either range 1, weapon range, or weapon range +1.

...Well I learn something new every day, it seems.

[Cynlas]

Ok, to encourage more "jumping", why not give the Long Jumper feat to them as a freebie at first level as a bonus feat? THis would go a reasonable distance to emulating their standing leaps in FF while not actually giving them too much that is not already allowed at the Heroic Tier.

Also, like some of the other base classes, I'd flag Athletics as an automatic skill (as it is most reflected and necessary to the class), and allow for a choice of 3 others, rather than just giving a choice of 4. A lancer without Athletics just doesn't fit the billing...

While I agree with your build that they aren't usually known for having the heaviest of armors (I didn't always think this way, but it wasn't until replaying certain incarnations that I realized that they really didn't wear the heaviest armors in the game), they are fighter-ish enough that I'd like to see their Healing Surges upped to 7 or 8+. Right now, yes, they are even with the Ranger, but a 7+ brings them up to a Warlord, and I think an 8+ would probably be most appropriate without taking away from Pallys and Fighters. Yes, in previous versions, Rangers were essentially fighters; but now they are more or less outdoorsy rogues, like they are in FF, so comparing them on that front doesn't really work anymore.

While I certainly don't want to recreate the Great Debate on "Martial Controllers" as is had on the WotC boards, I think this build is the closest you can actually come to such a concept, as only characters weilding reach weapons, and are capable of affecting areas with them, could be considered both "martial" and a "controller".

Oh, and I like the Paragon Paths. I'm not sure where the idea came from, but I don't see why there is an urge to create an Epic Destiny for every new class; this is not represented in the PHB, as ONLY the Archmage has an actual class requirement (and as such, imho, it shouldn't be an "epic" "destiny" as its too restrctive for the concept). So anyway, I'm certainly not going to knock your lancer for not having one!

Perhaps a good class specific feat for the Lancer would be the ability to "threaten" all the areas they can reach with their polearms. Perhaps a Lancer Paragon feat to replace the polearm feat available at that level. I don't think its powerful enough a concept to reserve it for Epic levels, but it could require Polearm Gamble as a prerequisite, if needed. Just an Idea.

Anyway, I'm gonna make a lancer and playtest it at length.

[ff6shadow]

Exen Trick
Hybrid is a pretty good placement. I've started listing all of my classes as having a primary role and a secondary role. I'll probably keep Controller as the primary role just to spite those people who say "Martial Controller is Impossible". But yeah, each tactic leans towards another role. Flurry of Blows leans towards Defender and Precision Strike leans towards Strike.


Cynlas
I had considered placing Athletics as a mandatory skill, but I've already houseruled mandatory class skills out of my game. I simply dislike the feel of being told I have to have a skill. My favorite 3.5 sorcerer had no ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) or Spellcraft. Was quite the suprise when the party wizard asked for his help and I said "Help with what? I don't know anything about that stuff. I just do it."

I had considered adding a real threatening reach feat, but felt invalidating polearm gamble would be too strong. I also avoided adding wisdom as a oprimary stat to make the character reach if he wants to have it. However, threatening reach is available to the class by level 5 as a stance.

Additionally, I agree with you that not every class needs an epic destiny.

That would be great if you run some playtesting Cynlas. I'm not curently running a game at the moment, so my opportunities for playtesting are limited.

[Cynlas]

I've already houseruled mandatory class skills out of my game.

Well, that does explain it. It works, as not all the PHB classes have mandatory skills, and I certainly agree with not having a mandatory skill for the Blue Mage. But, for the Lancer, given the necessity for jumping training in order to pull off their martial exploits, it just seemed appropriate (like a Cleric being 'forced' to have the Religion Skill). Nothing I can't add in my game's version

What you did with your Sorcerer was, imho, appropriate; I disliked scorcerers having Know: Arcane and spell craft = both skills were the antithesis to their magical concept (natural intutive ability vs. scholastic learning). But then, the skills system required them to get them eventually just to use some of their spells... annoying that.

[WanderingMystic]

I have been playing one at low levels for about a month now and while it is not quite as effective as a wizard I find it's attacks to be more versatile and works well as a weak defender. Having an extra healing surge or two would be nice but hasn't been necessary as of yet. You have good mobility, good (not great) AOE, and a great ability to move the enemy where you want them, or keep them from moving at all. A Wizard has better AOE's (and alrger ones) but not as much actualy control over the enimy. (Im level 7 now and charge and spin is my freind)

[ff6shadow]

Cool Wandering Mystic. Glad to know it's working well. Has there been any issue with outdamaging strikers and defenders or with your HP totals? Which Tactic ands at-wills did you go with? And hopefully you'll make it to mid paragon where the burst gets larger.

[WanderingMystic]

Race: Eladrin
Tactic: Precision Striker
Str: 17 (+1 at 4th will put another +1 at 8th, 14th, 18th, 24th and 28th)
Con: 12
Dex: 16 (will put +1 at 14th and 18th)
Int: 17 (+1 at 4th, will put another +1 at 8th, 24th and 28th)
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
I put the 2 points into dex to get spear mastery

At Will:
Burst Strike and Piercing Thrust

Encounter:
1st: Distracting Shot
3rd: Precision Strike (have contemplated Dazzling Assault)
7th: Charge and Spin

Daily:
1st: Whirling Attack
5th: Pinning Strike

Utility:
2nd: Careful Positioning
6th: Repositioning Maneuver

One thing I have noticed id Daily 5th : Coiled Viper feels very weak it should make some kind of attack in addition to just threatening reach or deal some extra damage.

[ff6shadow]

Wow, looking at your power selection I just realized something. Repositioning Maneuver is actually worse than Careful Positioning. It shifts 1 square less and is a daily power. I'll need to figure out something for that.

Coiled Viper feels weak? I figured threatening reach would be worth it, but maybe not. I'll think of something.

[WanderingMystic]

Coiled Viper is weak considering that it is a 5th level Daily Attack, all attack powers deal damage. It would be good as a 6th level Utility Encounter.

Wow, looking at your power selection I just realized something. Repositioning Maneuver is actually worse than Careful Positioning. It shifts 1 square less and is a daily power. I'll need to figure out something for that.

I don't think i ever noticed that, I just traded out Quick step at 7th level for it because I felt like it would be more useful, i misread it as a minor action and not a move action.

[ff6shadow]

Changed Coiled Viper to Level 6 Utility, altered Repositioning Maneuver to be a Minor Action, gave Pinning Strike a target line, added a new 5th level Daily Lightning Assault

[WanderingMystic]

changed made to the pdf
by the way i love lightning assault i am going to see if my dm will let me swap out pinning strike for that

[ff6shadow]

Good news. Why donn't you just wait till level up and retrain?

[WanderingMystic]

I don't want to wait

[ff6shadow]

Very good reason, but it make's me wonder if the power is a little to strong then.

[Exen Trik]

Originally Posted by ff6shadow

Very good reason, but it make's me wonder if the power is a little to strong then.

Lightning Assault is a max of 4[W] damage, with the stat mod twice, against multiple targets. Considerably stronger than a wizards 3d6 fireball, despite the lack of range and only close burst. Also compare to the ranger's two wolf pounce, that gives 2[W] and 1[W], with a secondary 2[W], but all against single targets.

I'd suggest dropping each attack to 1[W].