4e Fan Creations and House RulesWorking on variant powers? Statting up a PC race or your version of a monster? Creating or converting an adventure? Put it here!
Just a plug for what I would like to see in a character sheet (although based on every single character sheet made since 3.0 I feel I must be a minority): Give me a character sheet with the information I need to play and without that math behind that information.
Rather than a character sheet that shows AC = 10 + armor + ability + etc + etc, a character sheet that shows my AC. Period.
Rather than a character sheet that shows my initiative modifier = ability + feat, a character sheet that shows my initiative modifier.
Rather than a character sheet that shows the math behind my attacks, a character sheet that shows my attacks.
Rather than a character sheet that shows all of my various skill modifiers, a character sheet that shows my final skill modfier.
Sure, all that math is nice to have available when you need it, but when you need it is generally not at the gaming table. (And this is even more true in 4E since ability score attacks are out the window). And having that information on the character sheet makes it harder to find out what I do need to know at the table.
Request: One more page - call it page 0 or page 4, which has stripped down versions of the same information you show on your page 1, but without the math behind that information (perhaps with some additional useful information added, such as equipment, if space allows). One that shows clearly what I need at the table and leaves the rest for a reference page if I need to see how I arrived at those numbers.
Or maybe the desire to quickly see my character's abilities without wading through rows of (at the time) irrelevant modifiers is something I alone want.
I understand what you're asking, but I'm failing to see the benefit. In order to use any collection of information, you have to understand what you're looking at and how it's organized. Learning the basic character sheet isn't that hard, as no "final" values are hidden in any way (you do the calculation once and write it down to avoid doing it again needlessly). Are you suggesting that learning a second order of information, devoid of any clues as to how that information came about, is beneficial in some way? If you want to know your AC, what's wrong with looking at the left-most box directly under the text "AC"? Is this more a statement on the usability of the official character sheet?
What you gain is speed and expediency. The information you need is there and the information you don't need is not there. To say "You can learn to get used to it and find what you want" is not really a defense.
Let me turn this around: What do you gain by having the derivation of your AC, Initiative, etc. on the front page of your character sheet? (Note: I am not saying that a character creation/calculation page is not useful, only that its place isn't, imho, the front page of the character sheet). In what way is that information useful to you during the game?
What you gain is speed and expediency. The information you need is there and the information you don't need is not there. To say "You can learn to get used to it and find what you want" is not really a defense.
Let me turn this around: What do you gain by having the derivation of your AC, Initiative, etc. on the front page of your character sheet? (Note: I am not saying that a character creation/calculation page is not useful, only that its place isn't, imho, the front page of the character sheet). In what way is that information useful to you during the game?
I gain the following :
1) keeping with the format of the official character sheet layout
2) ready verifiability of the value should I question it
3) the lack of need to duplicate effort when the values are already presented in a format I'm familiar with
is there any list of either automated items or those items which are not (yet) automated?
I really like your generator, but I think it's easy to miss something without checking each and every detail of the resultant sheet.
Such a list wouldn't be very productive. I've had suggestions of a "build a character checklist" type thing, and it's on my idea list for a future version.
1) keeping with the format of the official character sheet layout == It's the way I've always done it they're doing it now.
2) ready verifiability of the value should I question it == Available on a deeper page if you need it. (Do you often find yourself having to verify your numbers during the game? If so, then the theory behind a precalculated sheet is flawed in the first place. Calculations should be verified once (before play) and then trusted during play. And thus need not be 'on top' during play.)
3) the lack of need to duplicate effort when the values are already presented in a format I'm familiar with == It's the way I've always done it.
Clearly your assumptions are unassailable, although (imho) flawed.
So be it.
Some people look at systems and ask whether they are truely the best approach to satisfy their needs, and some are satisfied to keep doing things the way they have always been done.
(Just out of curiosity, what edition did you first play under? And, yes, it is relevant.)
Carl
Last edited by Syrsuro; 29th August 2008 at 08:55 PM..
1) Not just the way they do it now, but the way that the majority of the people are familiar+comfortable with
2) mixed with #1, but add that the program presents other information as well (see power descriptions for example) on demand in current format without the need of yet another page to flip to
3) My time is severely limited, and it must be prioritized for the maximum return of invested effort. Duplicating effort, a lot of effort I might add, on something that has been brought to my attention only once out of countless other usability reports doesn't immediately warrant high on the priority list. Should others also request such a feature, more weight will be given to the idea.
Don't be so quick to try to pidgeon-hole me; you'll find yourself very mistaken in doing so.
I started playing AD&D, got fairly familiar with 2E, played a small bit of 3E, played a lot of 3.5E, and really enjoy 4E a lot. Throw in Rifts and all sorts of other games (both p&p as well as computer-based). Change doesn't scare me - change for the sake of change is pointless, and misguided change is worse than the status quo. That is, of course, unless you were trying to claim my lack of experience (if I had a lack) was relevant to my unwillingness to see beyond the current format.
You must understand - one of the highest design decisions for Character Sheet was keeping with the official character sheet layout in order to maintain a format that most people would be familiar and comfortable with. Any deviation from that must be justified by both quantity of user feedback and effort to accommodate those users. One person calling me short-sighted and calling my decisions "assumptions" fulfills neither.
1)
Don't be so quick to try to pidgeon-hole me; you'll find yourself very mistaken in doing so.
I started playing AD&D, got fairly familiar with 2E, played a small bit of 3E, played a lot of 3.5E, and really enjoy 4E a lot. Throw in Rifts and all sorts of other games (both p&p as well as computer-based). Change doesn't scare me - change for the sake of change is pointless, and misguided change is worse than the status quo. That is, of course, unless you were trying to claim my lack of experience (if I had a lack) was relevant to my unwillingness to see beyond the current format.
You must understand - one of the highest design decisions for Character Sheet was keeping with the official character sheet layout in order to maintain a format that most people would be familiar and comfortable with. Any deviation from that must be justified by both quantity of user feedback and effort to accommodate those users. One person calling me short-sighted and calling my decisions "assumptions" fulfills neither.
I asked when you started because the modern calculation-crammed character sheet is an artifact of the 3.x edition. Earlier editions did not have this (largely because the system did not need them).
Thus I find that at least some of those whose 'formative years' of gaming were predominantly under 1E or earlier are less interested in these cluttered sheets, while those for whom 3.x represents the majority of their gaming experience consider them the norm. In my own case, I admire elegance of function and see no reason to clutter the front page of my character sheet with information I simply will not need during play (while appreciating the convenience of a character creation sheet where I can enter my numbers and make my choices, and have my values calculated for me). You, on the other hand, apparently do not share the same esthetic and instead see a value in having the underlying calculations constantly in front of you.
And your decisions are not assumptions - and I never claimed that they were. (And I likewise did not call you short-sighted). But they are, as are all decisions, based upon assumptions. No slight was intended - I respect your opinion (and your work) while at the same time believing that there is a flaw in your underlying assumptions (specifically with the predominant assumption that "consistancy for its own sake is a desirable goal"). You could, on the other hand, claim that my assumption that "consistancy for its own sake has little or no value" is equally flawed.
I appreciate that your time is limited, and it is your project to do with as you wish. So I will drop this with one final thought: Which is ultimately more of a wasted effort? To repeat the efforts of eveyone else working in the same field, using the same approach and creating a sheet that is ultimately not that different than anyone else's (albeit doing it slightly better than are many others), or to look for new and innovative ways to approach the problem. Ways that are not the same as those everyone else are using and thus offer a truely different product, rather than an incremental improvement over the dozen or so other character sheets that are out there. (Especially when the suggestion of adding a fourth page that simply reflects the information from the 'calculation page' still allows those who do want the cluttered sheet to have it their way as well. In effect, allowing me to have my cake and them to eat it.)
Regardless, good luck with your continued project. For my part, I will stick to those designed around a spreadsheet - not because they are superior to your product, but because I can bend them to my will and end up with a sheet that does what I want.
(edit) Aside: When I went to GenCon this year my character sheet measured 5" x 8" (printed on cardstock using Excel) and, although it was a tight fit, contained all of the information I needed for play, including my equipment and attacks. On the other hand, although this was sufficient for 1st and 2nd level, I will clearly have to go with a larger sheet for the higher levels. And, of course, fitting it onto that small a space required custom adjusting field sizes and thus would not work for a generic project.
Another ongoing project of mine is to create a character sheet based upon Pocketmod. But that has its own difficulties.
Carl
Last edited by Syrsuro; 30th August 2008 at 10:23 AM..
I'm seeing a weird bug, where if I scroll down the page, I can't scroll back up. Its happening on my laptop (which has a fresh install of .NET Framework 3.0 SP1). I see some graphical corruption after I use the scroll buttons and then at that point I'm hosed. I'll have to check it on my home system this weekend to see if the problem is just related to one system or not. If you'd like screen shots, just let me know.
Also I'd love to see a sheet without all of the math presented, maybe an optional, simplified sheet. This way I can make up characters for convention events and its easier on the players. That way the sheet can be brought down to maybe one page, plus power cards and such. Just a suggestion though, the sheet is pretty cool
__________________ -John-
"This is much harder than it looks. I wouldn't expect you to understand." -- Skamos Redmoon on 4th Edition D&D.
That doesn't sound like a .NET issue so much as a Windows issue. Character Sheet uses a *lot* of windows controls, and it sounds like your laptop isn't handling well scrolling a window with that much redrawing. Is your laptop hurting for memory/drive space (either limitation will hamper Windows, either with excessive swapping or insufficient cache space)? Does it freeze every time you attempt to scroll, only when you scroll to the bottom, or what?
So, I'm looking at rearranging how equipment is listed on Character Sheet. It doesn't make much sense to have "Magic Items" listed above the equipment you have on, nor does separating "Other Equipment" from "Other Magic Items". There should be just one "Equipment" list and the equipment slots should link to whatever is in your equipment list that you set to wear.
Does this make sense above and beyond how the official character sheet is laid out? Does anyone have any rational for how things are currently with the official character sheet?
This is excellent; can't wait to use the final version. Some things you could add is a count of the number of feats and powers you have available and maybe a modifiable point buy total (my group uses 24 points).
No rationale from me. Just a question: are you going to be adding the Forgotten Realms books info and the adventurers vault info?
I don't have those books (yet), but above all, I don't intend to convert every sourcebook myself. It's become the most requested feature of late (above even functional equipment), which has suitably bumped the priority on allowing external data files to "right after equipment is fully functional". I'll have to put some time into fully documenting the data file format, but it won't be hard, nor take too long. I already have written down how handling data files will work, so it shouldn't take long to get that up and running.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdt
This is excellent; can't wait to use the final version. Some things you could add is a count of the number of feats and powers you have available and maybe a modifiable point buy total (my group uses 24 points).
I can make the total points modifiable easily enough. As for number of feats and powers available, I do plan on implementing a character validation process, which would tell you if you have unused ability points to spend, or if you have too few or too many feats/powers selected, whether you're missing trained skills, etc. A part of that will be a character creation checklist that will show the basic steps to creating a character that will prompt people to not forget certain things (involved in this would be validating the character's state). This isn't planned for a while, though; other functionality has to be in place first.
You do great work and I really appreciate. Just two things.
1. When do you expect you next release to be?
2. I see that the next release is going to have equipment, Is the next release going to have the Attack/Damage fields working? I have read what you plan to do with them and it sounds great.
I'm working around limited free time at the moment. I don't have a deadline that I've set for myself. Judging on my current rate of progress, I might have something worth releasing next Wednesday - it might be only basic equipment, it might include using the weapon/armor/gear slots, it might include functional attack/damage block usage. My free time has been severely limited as of late, so what gets released when will be determined by how quickly I can get done (and reasonably tested) enough to justify another release.
What a cool thing and a good idea. I assume you are taking all this criticism as 'we like it a lot and just want to use it always'. Well, most of it. It got a bit heated on page one.
My question is muticlassing. I couldn't add my free at will as an encounter. And when the list of powers comes up it is all of the powers for both classes.
My question is muticlassing. I couldn't add my free at will as an encounter. And when the list of powers comes up it is all of the powers for both classes.
Multiclass support is admittedly pretty sketchy right now. While support for accessing a multiclass' powers is in, using another class' daily power as an encounter power is not. It's on the todo list, right next to sorting out Dragonborn's different healing surge calculation. Both are non-trivial from a code infrastructure standpoint.
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