Rules Some 4e house rules I'm considering...

[Rel]

*Crossposted from CM*

Sometime in the not too distant future (likely before the year is over) I will be starting a new campaign and I'm pretty positive at this point that it will be 4e D&D. I'm starting to put together my ideas for the campaign world and I'm also considering some aspects of the system that I find a bit lacking. Here are two things that I'm thinking of making tweaks to:

Crafting/Professions

The Problem: The system has none of these. (FYI, there is a fairly big ENW thread that I have participated in about this topic in the General forum) I wish it did have them but I also recognize a problem inherent to the 3.x method of dealing with them in that they were bought with the same limited (very limited in the cases of most classes besides the Rogue and Bard) pool of resources that you spent on things like Concentration, Spot or Climb that helped you do actual adventuring.

My Solution: I'm using the same skill system already in 4e but I'm adding these skills on top of that. It'll work like this:

During character creation, I'll ask each player two questions.
"What did your character do for a living before becoming an adventurer?"
"What does your character like to do for fun when he isn't adventuring?"

The two answers to these questions will be added as Trained skills. You were a Blacksmith and like to play the Lute? No problem. You were an Innkeeper who likes to Dance? Write that down. We'll assign whatever attribute seems most appropriate to the skill in question and we're in business. When those things come up in play then we've got a number to base rolls off of.

The Healing System

The Problem: In general I'm ok with a lot of abstraction in a healing system. I understand (and have been in games) where a more complex healing system that intends to add a bunch of realism mostly just makes adventuring a pain in the ass to the point where the PC's want to avoid danger because they might get hurt. However, I am mildly to moderately put off by the notion that you never ever sustain an injury so dire that it takes you more than six hours of sleep to be rid of it. I'd like it better if there were at least a chance, occassionaly of you sustaining a wound that has effects more long lasting than those of a bottle of red wine.

My Solution: If you fail a Death Saving Throw (i.e. you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, get no healing before your next turn ends, and roll less than a 10 on the dice) then you have sustained a "Wound". There will be a small chart with the list of Wounds on it (I'll probably shoot for 20 total wounds but I haven't made the chart yet) and you will roll randomly to see in what manner you were wounded.

These wounds will range from things like an arm fracture to a concussion and will place you at a penalty of some sort. A couple of examples might be:

Arm Broken - One of your arms (roll randomly for which one) is broken and you cannot wield a weapon, shield or implement with that arm until it has healed.

Leg Broken - One of your legs has suffered a fracture. Even after being splinted it is painful and awkward to move around on. You are subject to the Slowed condition until it has healed.

Concussion - You have a head injury that results in confusion and pain. You are at -2 to all attacks and skill checks until it has healed.

Coma - You have a severe head injury that has rendered you unconscious. You may take no actions until it has healed.

...etc. (BTW, I envision a chart arranged by the severity of the wound and Coma would probably be right at the top of the list)

So now that I've established what the wounds do, the question becomes "how do I get rid of that?" I figure the easy solution is to simply use the Save Ends mechanic except that you are allowed to make such a save at the end of each Extended Rest. So you may have to suffer with that arm fracture for only a day before it has healed up enough to be usable again. Or it may linger on for a few days.

Two modifiers that I'd add to that Saving Throw would be that if a Trained Healer makes a successful roll (not sure on the DC yet) then you get a +2 to the Save. Also you get a cumulative +1 to the Save every time you fail it. So eventually you WILL get better even if you can't roll worth a damn.

So that's the crux of that idea. I've of course not playtested it yet and my experience with playing and running 4e is very limited. So I'd be interested in feedback from those of you more experienced with it. My general impression would be that it creates a situation that won't come up incredibly often and even when it does it is likely to be a minor inconvenience. However it could turn into something that generates tension when the PC's are on a tight timeline and can't take time to rest and recover from a tough fight where multiple PC's suffered a Wound.

It also adds a potentially interesting sub-system by which certain monsters could be designed to add modifiers to various parts of it. For example, a dragon, being huge and fierce, might add a +2 to any die rolls made on the Wounds chart because it tends to inflict nastier wounds. And maybe a Corruption Zombie causes wounds that are slow to heal so any Saving Throws made against wounds caused by them are at -5. Things like that.

What say ye?

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by Rel

During character creation, I'll ask each player two questions.
"What did your character do for a living before becoming an adventurer?"
"What does your character like to do for fun when he isn't adventuring?"

Love it.

So now that I've established what the wounds do, the question becomes "how do I get rid of that?" I figure the easy solution is to simply use the Save Ends mechanic except that you are allowed to make such a save at the end of each Extended Rest. So you may have to suffer with that arm fracture for only a day before it has healed up enough to be usable again. Or it may linger on for a few days.

I think a much better solution which I've heard suggested and might even have found its way into print in a couple of places, is to treat major wounds like a disease. Heal checks at appropriate DCs must be made to improve the condition of the wound, failure can move it in the 'wrong' direction.

I think Ari has something in his Advanced Players Guide, and possibly Rich Baker (I'd check on the wizards forums but they are down for maintenance for a few hours. Again.)

Cheers

[Rel]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

I think a much better solution which I've heard suggested and might even have found its way into print in a couple of places, is to treat major wounds like a disease. Heal checks at appropriate DCs must be made to improve the condition of the wound, failure can move it in the 'wrong' direction.

I think Ari has something in his Advanced Players Guide, and possibly Rich Baker (I'd check on the wizards forums but they are down for maintenance for a few hours. Again.)

Cheers

I would be very interested in reading any links you might have to this stuff. That was actually the first idea I had about how to handle Wounds but as I was reading the section of the DMG about diseases I noted all of the variable DCs and decided against it since you'd have to adjust those differently for every wound at every level. It just seemed more straightforward to make it a simple Save Ends type thing where, if anything, you only have to come up with one DC (the difficulty of the Heal check).

[keterys]

100% on the background skills.

Ari does have a Lingering Injuries rule you could look at it. If you do make a chart, I'd suggest making it a more graded scale so that you can only get coma under rare circumstances (where rare is not an unlikely roll of the die).

The DC for End/Heal for it is something like 15/20 + 1/2 level, so it's not hard to track.

For example, if it requires you have failed 2 death saves to get coma, at a minimum.

[Dinkeldog]

If you go with some kind of lingering wounds, then you'll have to build in the downtime for the PCs to heal them. Most of the games have had intense time pressure, where the ability to break for 6 weeks for a leg to heal wouldn't be remotely possible. In 6 weeks, the world would be ended.

You can also use that as an opportunity to include a couple new rituals for healing those wounds--but were it me, I'd make those much more commonly available than rituals for, say, Raise Dead. Treating major wound-healing as a ritual could also deliver the type of flavor from Moon's "Deed of Paksenarrion" where the major healing existed, but was prohibitively expensive unless there's a good reason, and usually with some kind of downtime, like 24 hours to recover, anyway.

[Hypersmurf]

Originally Posted by Rel

I would be very interested in reading any links you might have to this stuff.

Ari's APG Q&A thread is here; Merric summarises the Lingering Injury rules here

-Hyp.

[Rel]

So I've been reading the comments here and at CM and doing some contemplating and here's what I've come up with:

On Craft/Profession skills: I'm more and more in love with my own creation (surprise!) all the time. Chiefly because it adds virtually no extra hassle and never intrudes upon the rest of the system more than you want it to.

Just from a pure roleplaying/background perspective, I think that the questions I pose (former employment? hobbies?) are good information to have. And if those skills never come up in play, all you invested was the less-than-two-minutes that it took during character creation. And if they become more integral to the rest of the campaign then it's all bonus.

On Wounds: I've read the general ideas of Ari's system from the APG and I think that we are drinking the same kool-aid in general. As I previously mentioned, I had considered using the Disease Track as a way of implementing this when I first had the idea. I shied away from doing that because of all the variable DCs.

I guess that what I'm still hesitant about is that I'm saying, "For the sake of realism, I'm taking something simple (Hit Points) and adding some complexity (Wounds)." That road from simplicity to complexity in the name of realism is paved with good intentions but we know where it eventually leads (Rolemaster). I'll admit that I have no experience using the Disease Track or how much complexity it thrusts upon you but it has the look of going a bit too far down the Complexity/Realism road than I'm wild about.

Having not only a variety of wounds but also having them being in different states of getting better or worse means an increase in tracking that might push this notion from "interesting add-on" over to "right pain in the ass". I suppose there is no way to tell without playtesting.

I think what I'm leaning toward right now is the idea that, instead of a flat "Save Ends" roll that, since I'm already needing to decide a Heal DC anyway, I'll have it be a "Skill Roll Ends" where the Wounded PC can either make an Endurance check or someone skilled in Heal makes a successful Heal check vs the DC of the Wound. That DC will be set like any other DC would, appropriate to the level of the party. I can justify the increasing Endurance/Heal DC as the party increases in level by simply saying, "Well you're fighting nastier monsters nowadays. They inflict nastier wounds."

That just leaves me with populating my chart of possible injuries and assigning appropriate penalties. I'll post that whenever I complete it.

I'm still open to feedback, especially with regards to your own experiences with the Disease Track whether used for normal diseases or APG's Lingering Injuries System.