How I Fixed 4e

[H.M.Gimlord]

I liked the part about rituals. I like them because you don't, necessarily, have to be a particular class to use them. Until the existing list gets larger, I've found that old 2E spells work really well. Additionally, they bring back a really cool element that sometimes gives the game flavor: Non-monetary componenets (verbal, material, somatic etc...). The 2E spells fit very nicely into the level structure of the 4E rituals, and they make for really cool mini-quests.

[Neubert]

Rel, I really like your changes and might adopt them myself (after running them past my players). I have three questions regarding the Healing/"Wounded" condition though.

1 - You mention that the character need to succeed on an Endurance check. What DC have you planned to set? (I figured that ½ level would be added to the DC, so it won't be too simple for highlevel characters to shake the effects?).

2 - I am not certain I understand the following quote:
"They do not regain full hit points after an Extended Rest. A successful Heal check after an Extended Rest allows them to regain hit points as though they had spent a Healing Surge."
I guess the reason I am confused is due to the second sentence. They do not gain full health, but a Heal check can give them hit points back equal to their Surge Value? And is that amount adjusted by the "affected characters only heal ½ of their surge value (rounded down)"?

3 - You say:
"The PC is not as resiliant as normal and thus their healing surges only restore half (rounded down) of the normal hit points."
You say directly that it is only the affected characters own healing surges that restore half hit points. Is that on purpose or does abilities that doesn't expend an affected characters surges heal the full value?

Thanks in advance,
Neubert.

[Rel]

Originally Posted by Neubert

Rel, I really like your changes and might adopt them myself (after running them past my players). I have three questions regarding the Healing/"Wounded" condition though.

1 - You mention that the character need to succeed on an Endurance check. What DC have you planned to set? (I figured that ½ level would be added to the DC, so it won't be too simple for highlevel characters to shake the effects?).

2 - I am not certain I understand the following quote:
"They do not regain full hit points after an Extended Rest. A successful Heal check after an Extended Rest allows them to regain hit points as though they had spent a Healing Surge."
I guess the reason I am confused is due to the second sentence. They do not gain full health, but a Heal check can give them hit points back equal to their Surge Value? And is that amount adjusted by the "affected characters only heal ½ of their surge value (rounded down)"?

3 - You say:
"The PC is not as resiliant as normal and thus their healing surges only restore half (rounded down) of the normal hit points."
You say directly that it is only the affected characters own healing surges that restore half hit points. Is that on purpose or does abilities that doesn't expend an affected characters surges heal the full value?

Thanks in advance,
Neubert.

These are excellent questions and I will contemplate the answers and post them when I have more time. Just wanted you to know that I'm considering them.

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Replying from the "Disappointed About 4E Thread"

I guess I've always considered a "Wound System" to represent a penalty to a character's actions. Like in Shadowrun, as your damage track gets worse, you fight worse. This was to simulate the distraction of pain on your character. The problem with this type of system is that it causes a "death spiral" effect. As you become injured it is easier to become more injured.

Slowing their ability to heal when wounded really just shortens the time between extended rests. You could really just do that overall if you believe verisimilitude could be reached by making the characters rest more often. I don't really see the need to tack a wound tracking system on top of that desire.

I like alot of your other ideas. The milestone idea and the extraordinary actions (daily power + action point) appeal to me. I even mentioned those to my players (although they looked at me skeptically). The Skill idea is a great roleplaying tool.

I used a deck of cards to replace action points in 3E for one campaign. One of the cards spontaneously enchanted or improved an item of the character who played it at a dramatic moment.

[smdmcl]

Some great ideas in this thread that might see some use in my games.

I like the idea of the wounding system but I'd like to keep it simple. I was thinking that any time a character fails a death save they gain a wound point (maximum of 1 per encounter). A wound point would represent -1 to attack, damage and skill check rolls as well as surge values. The -1 would not affect saving throws or the number of healing surges a day to limit the "death spiral". Wound points would stack so the penalties would begin to add up if characters were routinely being knocked down. To remove a wound point a character would have to have an extended rest and make a (DC 10 +1/2 level) endurance check. A successful heal check (DC 10 +1/2 level) would add +2 to the endurance check. A character could only recover 1 wound point for each extended rest which means a character who has taken a beating would be much less combat effective and might take several days to heal back up to full strength. My only concern would be that this might shorten the adventuring day significantly which would not be welcome.

Freeform rituals are good idea but I think I'd have the caster record the ritual and treat it as spell research. That way the extra cost for the initial casting could be considered a component of the research and you could roleplay the caster searching ancient tomes in great libraries if you wish. Future use of the new ritual should have a cost in line with other rituals of it's level.

[Neubert]

Originally Posted by Rel

These are excellent questions and I will contemplate the answers and post them when I have more time. Just wanted you to know that I'm considering them.

Thanks first of all, I was under the impression that I just needed clarification with my questions. Since that is not the case and my questions are some that you need to contemplate before you have a answer ready for them, allow me to give my own suggestions for the three.

1 - I took a que from the diseases and it seems like the "improve" Endurance DC is about 20 + ½ level. This might be a little high for a 1st level character with 8 Con, so either reduce it by 1-2 points or he/she will need the aid of a character with high Heal skill.

2 - (Not sure here, as this was a clarification question)

3 - The easiest here is to take it by the letter and only have a characters own healing surges suffer (this also seems the most obvious, as the clerics magic shouldn't be dampened just because another character is wounded).


After reading the last couple of posts, it got me thinking though. There is a certain "death spiral" as Vyvyan Basterd mentioned, which slows the game. The problem with many wound implementations is that it will make the character kill the opponent slower (in the case of penalties for attack and damage), which means he/she might take more damage or healing is penalized (which uses up more healing surges). Both makes the party end their day earlier.
Another way (which might already have been suggested) would be to not apply the wounds until after an extended rest. Consider it as though you wake up the next day, the adrenaline of the previous day has faded and now your wounds start to *HURT*. It might not be as realistic, but once the party is taking their extended rest anyway, taking a couple more in a row will usually not have a great impact on the game, whereas being hit with penalties during combat or when taking a short rest would make the players want to go back to town and rest up. This can also come at a bad time, when the players are in the middle of infiltrating the enemy base.
Of course, this also removes the interesting element where players might have to suffer these penalties because they have already snuck into the lair of the bad guy and taking a longer rest is not an option. But if the reasons for implementing wounds is simply to give the players some natual stopping points (like any sane person would after fighting a dragon), then this might be the way to go.

A last point I'll make, and then you shall be rid of me. Obviously, these wounds need to have a certain penalty associated with them, no matter if they are applied right away or the next day. I am not a big fan of penalties, as it is my experience that players tend to forget the -1 or to reduce the amount healed unless it is recorded on the character sheet. Since they are meant to be temporary, that shouldn't be needed - but alas, I can come up with nothing better at the moment.

I really like the idea of wounds however, especially as a way to give characters (or NPC's) distinctive scars, so keep up the good work!

[Rel]

Whew! It's been a crazy busy work week. I've finally got a bit of breathing room though so let me address this stuff.

Originally Posted by Neubert

1 - You mention that the character need to succeed on an Endurance check. What DC have you planned to set? (I figured that ½ level would be added to the DC, so it won't be too simple for highlevel characters to shake the effects?).

There will definitely be a sliding difficulty on the DC's as they rise in level. The non-metagame reason for this is that tougher monsters hit harder and inflict nastier wounds. I've not decided on an exact DC scale but I was planning to use the difficult DC rules based on level listed in the DMG.

2 - I am not certain I understand the following quote:
"They do not regain full hit points after an Extended Rest. A successful Heal check after an Extended Rest allows them to regain hit points as though they had spent a Healing Surge."
I guess the reason I am confused is due to the second sentence. They do not gain full health, but a Heal check can give them hit points back equal to their Surge Value? And is that amount adjusted by the "affected characters only heal ½ of their surge value (rounded down)"?

The healing gained is whatever their current Surge would heal. Let me see if I can explain this using an example:

Bob is a 3rd level Fighter with a 13 Con. This gives him 40 HP and 10 Healing Surges. He's got a +7 Endurance.

Bob got Wounded in the battle with the Dragon (let's say due to a Crit). At the end of the fight he had 4 of his 40 Hit Points remaining and one Healing Surge left. After the party has a Short Rest following the fight, he spends his last Surge to heal. His surges normally heal 10 but he is Wounded so it only heals half. That gives him 5 more HP and now he's got 9. The party spends the night in the Dragon's lair and takes an Extended Rest.

Bob awakes feeling pretty rough. He's only got 9 HP because he heals none during the Extended Rest due to his Wounded condition. But he has all 10 of his surges back. Now he tries to recover from Wounded.

The DC for this is a 20 (Dragons bite Hard). Bob rolls a 6 and fails to recover. The party Cleric takes a look at him and manages to make a successful Heal check on him and that gets him back HP as though he had spent a Surge. Since his current Surge value is 5 then he's up to 14 HP. Bob opts to go ahead and spend 5 Healing Surges to regain another 25 HP, bringin him up to 39. He's still got another 5 Surges that he can spend throughout the day for another 25 HP so he'll focus on fighting defensively a bit more and hope for the best.

Let's pretend that Bob had instead rolled a 14 and made the Endurance check to recover from Wounded. Then the Cleric made the Heal check on him and Bob got back his current Surge value in HP, which would have been 10. That takes him to 19 HP. He then opts to spend two more Surges, giving him 10 HP each and gets up to 39 HP. Suddenly he's feeling much better and, with 8 more Surges left for the day, he feels nearly like his normal self again.

3 - You say:
"The PC is not as resiliant as normal and thus their healing surges only restore half (rounded down) of the normal hit points."
You say directly that it is only the affected characters own healing surges that restore half hit points. Is that on purpose or does abilities that doesn't expend an affected characters surges heal the full value?

Thanks in advance,
Neubert.

I'd say that anything that says, "As though (the wounded character) had spent a healing surge" would heal whatever their current Surge value is (i.e. half normal if they are Wounded). If there is a power (and I don't know of one) that says, "...heal another character a number of HP equal to your Surge value." then I'd be ok with it healing the full normal healing.

Thanks again for helping me hash this out.

[Silent Cartographer]

Originally Posted by Rel

The PC is not as resiliant as normal and thus their healing surges only restore half (rounded down) of the normal hit points.[/i]

How about Temporary Hitpoints, instead?

You'll get the full effect of the healing surge, but it wears off just as soon as the fight is over, and it won't stack with other temp hp effects.

[Rel]

Originally Posted by Silent Cartographer

How about Temporary Hitpoints, instead?

You'll get the full effect of the healing surge, but it wears off just as soon as the fight is over, and it won't stack with other temp hp effects.

Gah! Every time I think I've nailed down this system somebody throws me another cool idea that I hadn't considered!

That has some very interesting implications. I'm going to have to think on this (I do so hate to think on a Friday too!).

[Neubert]

Thanks for the reply

Point no. 2 makes sense now. It was also as I understood it, but I wasn't too sure.

In regards to any powers, I'm pretty sure that the Paladin Lay On Hands uses the Paladins own healing surges. I also know that the Cleric's "Cure Light Wounds" (I believe, I don't have the book in front of me) has another text than "lets the character spend a healing surge", but it might be the one you referenced above: "as though they spent one".

[Silent Cartographer]

Originally Posted by Rel

Gah! Every time I think I've nailed down this system somebody throws me another cool idea that I hadn't considered!

That has some very interesting implications. I'm going to have to think on this (I do so hate to think on a Friday too!).

Exactly.

If you'll allow me to extrapolate a little further...

Condition: Wounded. A Wounded character has suffered a lasting injury which impedes the character's ability to recover combat readiness. While suffering the Wounded condition, the character does not recover lost Hit Points normally after an Extended Rest. Also, the affected character's Healing Surges only provide Temporary Hit Points.

After an Extended Rest, a Wounded character may attempt an Endurance check to recover Hit Points equal to the character's normal Healing Surge value. If this check fails, the character still recovers half that amount. Additionally, a successful Healing check will also recover Hit Points equal to the character's normal Healing Surge. Thus, it is possible for the character to recover up to 2x Healing Surges worth of Hit Points after an Extended Rest. No actual Heal Surges are used to perform these checks.

The Wounded condition can only be removed once the character has fully recovered all normal Hit Points.

P.S. At this point, we can go on the create a series of rituals, Cure Minor Wounds (1x Surge), Cure Light Wounds (2x Surge), etc., which recover real HPs. Also, as noted, healing effects based off of something other than the affected character's own surges would heal HP normally. This gives the players tools to get rid of the condition quickly.

[Rel]

Originally Posted by Silent Cartographer

Exactly.

If you'll allow me to extrapolate a little further...

Condition: Wounded. A Wounded character has suffered a lasting injury which impedes the character's ability to recover combat readiness. While suffering the Wounded condition, the character does not recover lost Hit Points normally after an Extended Rest. Also, the affected character's Healing Surges only provide Temporary Hit Points.

After an Extended Rest, a Wounded character may attempt an Endurance check to recover Hit Points equal to the character's normal Healing Surge value. If this check fails, the character still recovers half that amount. Additionally, a successful Healing check will also recover Hit Points equal to the character's normal Healing Surge. Thus, it is possible for the character to recover up to 2x Healing Surges worth of Hit Points after an Extended Rest. No actual Heal Surges are used to perform these checks.

The Wounded condition can only be removed once the character has fully recovered all normal Hit Points.

P.S. At this point, we can go on the create a series of rituals, Cure Minor Wounds (1x Surge), Cure Light Wounds (2x Surge), etc., which recover real HPs. Also, as noted, healing effects based off of something other than the affected character's own surges would heal HP normally. This gives the players tools to get rid of the condition quickly.

Again, very interesting. The only thing I like about it less than my most recent solution is that you have to track current and temporary hit points separately. I mean you'd have to do that anyway if you have conditions that grant temp HP but this would create another such condition.

[Silent Cartographer]

True enough. Everything has a cost. I think as long as resources are available to be expended removing the condition, I don't see it sticking around all that long in real play.

[Wolf88]

Rel, what about something even simpler and more straightforward? just a suggestion to be fleshed out later!
If a character uses up all his healing surges he gets a [Wound] and unless someone Heals him (with an ability check or a ritual, most powers shouldn't work here) he simply regains half surges per day. a character can have multiple [Wound]s and each one has to be treated separately. multiple [Wound]s stack but any one beyond the first subtracts only one surge from the wounded total

kinda equivalent to your first suggestion, but half surges at full power is both easier to manage and actually looks more appropriate to me... when wounded you have less energy reserves to draw from, but your body draws at them with the same speed!

[Thasmodious]

Originally Posted by Rel

Skills - [snip]

I seem to recall you mentioning this ages ago in one of the many 4e hates craft threads. I like the idea for when you think you'll need regular mechanical support for it. And I like that it doesn't hurt players who want to have such "flavor" skills and force an exchange. In my game, non-adventuring skills arise from background and we don't bother to stat them out, just come up with something if a situation ever requires a die roll.

Powers - My answer is Action Points.

This is really cool and flavorful. I might well tweak and steal this one. After reading it, my thought is that sacrificing a daily might be a bit much, along with an action point. Maybe an item daily might work (that refreses with milestones). I might even use a seperate allocation of points that I would reward through good roleplaying or something. "Cinema points" or something.

Milestones - There are few mechanics in 4e that I find less flavorful than the "fight two encounters, get a Milestone" bit. But after consideration, I determined that what I needed to do is to simply turn Milestones into, well, milestones. In other words, have something meaningful actually take place. And it doesn't have to be after the encounter either. It can be smack dab in the middle of the battle.

I agree, and I started doing much the same thing. When I prep an adventure, I include a note on when milestones are reached, after certain fights or when a certain puzzle is solved, etc. And when winging it, just when it makes sense, but yeah, I don't try to keep up with the every other encounter thing either.

Healing - ...That may not bother you. I'm not saying it should bother you. But it bothers me.

It's always bothered me a bit. I houseruled a wounding system in 2e, used wound/vitality in 3e for a bit, but in the end its something that bothers me more than my players, and the extra hassle isn't usually worth it, so I just live with it. At some point I'll likely tinker with a wound system for 4e and when I do, this will be the base. I love the idea of triggering it off of failed death saves. What would you think about using a condition monitor like the disease system? Seems like beating an endurance check once would be fairly easy and most all wounds would recover after a single extended rest anyway, which would seem a bit of extra hassle for not much. Unless the way you see it is more a means to apply penalties for wounds throughout multiple encounters in a single day. But that would seem to encourage early rests.

Rituals - Love em'. LOVE em'! You know what goes good with Rituals? MORE Rituals!

Couldn't agree more. Love the idea of monster parts as reagent treasure, clever. I also really like the idea of breaking up enchant into specific rituals. I'll steal that for sure.

Magic Items - That's why, to put them back in whack, I'll make your items magic for FREE. Once in a while, due to the chaos and magic that pervades my campaign world, stuff just sort of resonates and becomes spontaneously enchanted. The death blow to the Red Dragon caused your sword to become a Dragonslayer. When you, in a blind rage, slew the Hobgoblin Lieutenant (remember him?) that killed your father, it was forevermore a Berserker Weapon. And was that demonic visage attempting to strike a bargain in your dream last night real or merely a nightmare? You don't know but your newly enchanted Pact Blade gives you cause for worry.

I've always liked doing stuff like that and the pact blade idea gave me the inspiration to resolve something I was working on in regards to a couple character's backstories. So thanks for that! A pact blade enchanted through a dream fits great with some themes brewing in my game.

All in all, an excellent set of house rules, I think.

[catsclaw227]

Hey Rel... You're gonna be codifying this and putting it into a Word doc or PDF, right?

[Rel]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

Hey Rel... You're gonna be codifying this and putting it into a Word doc or PDF, right?

Um...maybe?

Ahem, I mean, yeah almost certainly since I'll want to hand it out to the players at some point. But not tonight. Tonight, I drive to DisneyWorld!

[Eridanis]

"Rel, you've sketched out some 4E house rules that are greatly admired. What are you going to do now?"

"I'm going to Disney World!"

(And it suddenly strikes me that many of our younger posters will have no flippin' idea what I'm quoting. I should take out my teeth, pop my Geritol and go to bed!)

[Rel]

Originally Posted by Thasmodious

(Re: Using Action Point + Daily to do "something cool")

This is really cool and flavorful. I might well tweak and steal this one. After reading it, my thought is that sacrificing a daily might be a bit much, along with an action point. Maybe an item daily might work (that refreses with milestones). I might even use a seperate allocation of points that I would reward through good roleplaying or something. "Cinema points" or something.

I got to see this in play for the first time last night and my conclusion is that you are right about the cost being too high. I don't want the game to devolve into an endless series of me having to adjudicate stuff that isn't covered by existing powers, but the combo of the PC having both Action Point and unused Daily both at the same time seems a bit limiting. This could be because we were playing a 1st level adventure so the PC's each only have one Daily anyway. Regardless, I'd like to have it be available to them a bit more.

I'm leaning toward Action Point + Healing Surge as the cost. Healing Surge is obviously a far cheaper price to pay than a Daily but it still requires the player to throw in an expendable resource. I suppose that if I wanted to keep the cost a bit higher then I could go with Action Point + Encounter Power. At first level that still means that many PC's will only have 1 to spend but many of the races and classes have extra Encounter Powers included that would bolster that and also they wouldn't have any chance of having already spent it before that encounter (like they would wiht a Daily).

[invokethehojo]

I wish you were my DM