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I'm really enjoying where the conversation is going. Thanks, guys.
I definitely agree that an expanded list (beyond simple combat bonuses) of rituals is the way to go. They were just my first off-the-top-of-my-head stab at them. With that said, I think that minor combat bonuses could be okay for a few of them, provided that they are less powerful than a feat, etc. and conform to the general consensus restrictions above.
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Not as much fun, I know, but some of the rituals proposed here would come to dominate combat to the point where fighters would feel "entitled" to Martial Ritual as a bonus feat, since all fighters then "must" have Martial Ritual.
My personal opinion on this thought is that I don't buy it. No player should feel entitled to anything at any time. But THAT is a whole other discussion...
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I'm starting to be disadvantaged by the talk of 3E gaming, because I've only come back to DnD since 4E is out--but I'll just need to get up with it.
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Going back to the beginning: Perhaps rituals aren't the mechanic to accomplish what I am trying to do. I like the idea (as I've said above) of warriors, soldiers, etc. doing things in their "off" time that contributes to their success on the battlefield. It happens in the real world--and I believed that the ritual might be the way to accomplish the same thing.
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The more I think about it, the less martial rituals make sense to me. Whatever it is, it's probably not a ritual. None of the suggested skills for martial rituals are knowledge based, whereas all the existing ritual skills are.
Perhaps it's not a ritual. Although I don't agree with your idea that a ritual has to by definition be knowledge based. More to ponder...
The more I look at rituals the better I think they can simulate combat rites, or at least the underlying concept minus the ritual book/scrolls fluff. They require time to master, are useful in specific circumstances, have a cost to use, are mostly optional (e.g. only clerics and wizards automaticall get ritual casting), and the DM has the say over which appear in the game and when. They are helpful and add flavor to a PC, but not a must have.
I see martial rituals being divided into three broad types. The most numerous would be those that provide a unique ability outside of combat (eg. forced march). Then there would be some providing enhanced/epic skill use (eg. Acrobatics to duck alongside horse and use for cover). Last, there would be a few providing a minor bonus for a specific type of combat encounter (e.g. meditation to suppress condition).
Here are some further ideas for martial ritual categories:
Arming (Endurance): Caring for, enhancing, and making arms & armor.
Chivalry (Diplomacy): ?
Cunning (Bluff, Stealth, or Thievery): ?
Exploration (Endurance or Nature): A catch-all category, exploration rituals include a variety of effects useful in everyday adventuring.
Meditation (Endurance): These rituals allow you to heal faster, suppress conditions, and focus.
Might (Acrobatics, Athletics, or Endurance): These rituals allow you to accomplish amazing physical stunts.
Strategy (Bluff, History or Intimidate): These rituals grant you a strategic edge on your foes.
Quickleaf - By your listing of categories, it seems to me that you recommending a strong break from normal 'arcane' rituals for these new martial rituals. I think that that might be the way to go. It certainly removes some of the restrictions that I felt when thinking about how to implement my ideas.
I definitely like the categories that you've come up with. Now I need to go off and think of some ideas to contribute...
Hey Cartographer, I'm very interested in this idea you've come up with - it's something I would definitely use in the campaign I'm planning.
As a starting place I realized that many rituals are based on either Wizard or Cleric spells of older editions. While there's much less to work from for the martial classes, I'm pretty sure 2nd edition's player's option series had some cool ideas as did OD&D. Heck, it could even be a way to model the Leadership feat, like a ritual to swear an oath with a companion, or to muster troops (i realize this breaks with 4e's economy of actions, but i think the shaman does that, and maybe there's a way to incorporate some of the swarm rules/homebrew unit rules to represent low-level combat units?)
Here's an example of what a combat rite (for lack of a better name) could look like...
Balancing Act Preparing yourself for a death-defying balancing act in the midst of battle, you feel your feet touch the ground like sensitive hands.
This ritual allows you to maintain your guard while balancing. The benefit you receive is determined by an Acrobatics check.
19 or lower: You do not grant combat advantage while balancing. 20-39: You can move at 3/4 your speed while moving across a narrow or unstable object. 40 or higher: You only fall on a fail of 10 or more. A fail of 5 or more instead causes you to lose the rest of your move action, and grants combat advantage and reduces your speed to 1/2 until the end of your next turn.
Existing rituals appear to exist specific situations: a locked door, distant travel, a dead or diseased ally. They also fall into one of nine categories: Binding, Creation, Deception, Divination, Exploration, Restoration, Scrying, Travel, and Warding. None of those look like to hit or damage bonuses, and indeed, few of the rituals are useful in combat. Indeed, none of those categories seems very martial.
Well, that does give me a few ideas, though.
Warding: by meditating, praying, or doing a set of physical exercises before bedding down, you center yourself mentally to sleep soundly while waking at any disturbance. Gives you a bonus to perception while asleep (or something), enabling you to wake easier if disturbed. Or a bonus to initiative the first round after being woken, so you can leap to your feet and start lashing out.
Another sleep-related possibility is trading a half hour of exercises (which is better mechanically than sleep because you don't have to worry about being surprised - you're awake but busy) for an hour off your extended rest requirements.
Yet another possible ritual would allow you to sleep comfortably in your armour.
Exploration: Oil Your Armour. Apply expensive oils to your armour (large component cost) so it doesn't creak: ignore ACP to Stealth checks.
I think the biggest mistake made so far with the existing PHB rituals is their use of fixed casting times and durations, unlike almost the entire rest of the game. I really think Rituals or their analogs need to be done in terms of short and extended rests. If you're going to invent something new, I recommend avoiding the ten minute/one hour/24 hours format.
My personal opinion on this thought is that I don't buy it. No player should feel entitled to anything at any time. But THAT is a whole other discussion...
Entitled might have been a confusing word choice. The thing is that +1 to attack rolls is pretty tasty, and fairly hard to come by. There are few feats that give +1 to attack rolls, and only in specific situations. +2 is typically something you enjoy only if you endanger yourself (by getting into melee for combat advantage) or receive a power-based bonus (which means it typically only lasts 1 round). +3 to attack rolls means that if an attack normally would need to roll an 11 to hit, you only need an 8. That's huge.
Whether or not the particular player feels entitled to it, it will become something that every martial character squeezes into their build. Damage bonuses might not be too bad to include, but attack bonuses will make everyone want to take that ritual - and they might feel disadvantaged otherwise.
Last edited by dammitbiscuit; 13th February 2009 at 08:33 AM..
As far as putting a cost on these "rituals", components would make absolutely no sense, and action points are far too rare a commodity. I think healing surges would be the best way to go.
Seems to me that it would certainly be fine to allow for a bunch of non combat type bonuses with no real issue. I agree with the idea that instead of a 'casting time' it should be described as either being usable in a short or extended rest. That's an easier mechanic to fit into the game. Basically the casting time thing devolves down to that anyway. A 10 minute ritual is essentially a 'short rest' ritual, a 1 hour one is an extended rest ritual, and a longer ritual is one you only use when bunkered down in your 'base of operations' or some other highly secure location you can afford to remain in for a period of time.
Component costs are a bit more problematic. They COULD fit in to the fluff for some of these things, like something that provides a way to use equipment in an enhanced way, but it doesn't really mesh too well with the original 'kata' sort of concept where the character is meditating or something like that. Game mechanics wise it works OK, but it just has the wrong flavor.
I am also not too fond at this point of designing Marshal Rituals that do 'feat like' things. That is if you want a combat bonus of some kind, take a power or a feat. Otherwise the ritual caster feat WILL end up being a 'swiss army knife' for marshal characters, just as it seems to threaten to become for Clerics and Wizards.
I'd say there could be a few categories of things that would make sense to allow:
1) Rituals that allow an attribute check bonus, like increasing your str bonus for the next attribute check you need to make ONLY. So you could 'summon inner strength' and break down a door. It might be ok to extend it to attribute bonus applied to a single skill use as well, like you meditate and then can get a plus to escape bonds. Those are things that right now are not really addressed by existing feats/powers much and at worst the ritual is less good than say Endurance, which is always in effect.
2) Rituals that bend other non combat rules somewhat, like 'forced march' where the character can increase his overland move rate somewhat for a day.
3) Rituals of obeisance that could be used to improve the morale or other capabilities of an NPC under the player's command in a general way. That might be modeled by giving the NPC an action point or an extra surge use or just encourages the DM to increase the NPCs willingness to follow an order it might not otherwise follow (granted this is one of those things where the game does not supply explicit mechanics, but most DMs probably model these as skill check or straight charisma checks anyway and then it is pretty simple).
I think that covers the MAIN sorts of things that might be desired. Using an HS as the cost also seems to me to work well within both the mechanics and the flavor of the thing. Not only is the character giving up some other feat they could have had to get Ritual Casting, but they also pay a not insignificant and concrete cost to actually use the feat. Remember, existing rituals don't have these kinds of penalty (one or two do, but they are all LONG casting time anyway and not really something you'd use on most adventures).
As a sort of aside, I just don't like the whole casting cost mechanism to begin with. Money is really a rather secondary consideration in FRPG. It is hard to track and players are never quite sure how much they have and etc. Residuum just adds an entire second set of mechanics on top of THAT to deal with, and fluff wise is hokey as all get out to boot. Personally I think the good old 'components' mechanism is the nicest. It was a bad idea for spells, but for rituals and magic item creation it works great. You want to make a suit of Elderscale armor, then you are going to have to come up with the scales of an elder dragon! If the DM wants that to be a money cost item, then he can let you buy it, but otherwise its a plot hook. Same with casting some super powerful ritual, you want to use Shadow Walk, then maybe you need some Spectre Dust or something like that.
Four things we've established about combat rites:
(1) They require a short rest or extended rest to prepare
(2) Most require you to spend a healing surge
(3) They don't provide bonuses in combat
(4) Combat rite checks can use many skills but default is Endurance
Looking at the categories for regular rituals, I've gone through and decided which are appropriate to combat rites...
Binding: No martial application, cut this category. Creation: Could be used to model crafting and "Arming" skill. Deception: Maybe some roguish stuff working off Bluff could go here...I'm still not sure. Divination: No martial application, but this could be replaced with a History based "Strategy" category. Exploration: Keep it. Restoration: There might be a few, but this probably should be left to regular rituals. Scrying: I wonder if spying/scouting the enemy could apply to a similar category "Scout" based on Stealth/Perception? Travel: These effects are too magical, and the non-magical stuff can be folded into Exploration. Warding: Might work if based as "Guard" (Endurance/Perception) representing different guarding states like tending the campfire, acting as bodyguard, defending a castle's walls, etc.
So from this list we might get the following categories:
Arming
Guard
Exploration
Scout
Strategy
To this list we can add a few new categories like Meditation, Might, and Obeisance... and come up with this final list:
Arming (Endurance): Caring for, enhancing, repairing, and making arms & armor. Exploration (various): Catch-all category for everyday adventuring Guard (Endurance, Perception): Keeping watch over your allies. Meditation (Endurance): Increase your recovery, suppress conditions, and enter states of hyper focus. Might (Acrobatics, Athletics, Endurance): Accomplish amazing physical stunts, pushing your skills beyond what others can. Obesiance (Diplomacy, Intimidate): Take leadership of NPC allies, inspiring them to stand up for your cause. Scout (Perception, Stealth): Gather intelligence on nearby enemies. Strategy (History): Draw on your knowledge of military history and your own strategic genius to manipulate the battlefield.
Can anyone see anything missing from this list? For example, should there be a category for animal handling?
EDIT: Thinking about it, Scout could just be rolled into Exploration. Also, there might be a category for Techniques/Forms which links a # of powers and grants you a bonus to last one if you perform all successfully.
Quickleaf - Try as I might, I can't think of any additional categories. Most of the ideas that I have seem to fit nicely into one of those you've already listed.
Well, the technique idea you had brought up earlier deserves its own category. I kind of see it as being based around 3 rites, one for each tier. Maybe even call them Heroic Weapon Form, Paragon Weapon Form, and Epic Weapon Form (though I prefer "immortal technique" for that one )?
What I'm thinking is that you'd chose a # of powers to link into a form. If you perform them all successfully & in sequence during combat you gain a bonus to the last power equal to the # power in the chain. At paragon tier you might get a rite that allows you to perform them in any order, not just in sequence. At epic tier you might have the bonuses accrue for each power you perform successfuly, growing like a crescendo.
As long as the campfire burns you suffer no penalty to Perception checks to notice danger during an extended rest, and you may wake all your allies with a minor action by either extinguishing the fire or putting extra wood on. You may make active Perception checks instead of passive ones during your campfire watch.
Has anyone else seen Mongoose Publishing's Quintessential Fighter for 4th edition? It includes a system for Martial Rituals similar to what's been discussed here.
I've amended the ones I've used in the game thus far following the four points of logic you introduced in this thread. Here are the names, and the first ritual I crafted (redrafting current rituals). Additional rituals will be Fighter's Cadence (linking together successful at-will attacks to result in a Milestone), increasing endurance for 24 hours, Pathfinder (forage for food and water without skill checks over a period of time by enviroment), Penny Pinching (increase the amount of coin you have by shaving coins down) and other rituals that fall outside of just the fighter's realm - they'll ally with Rogue, Ranger and Warlord interests as well.
Repair Arms and Armor (Level 1 Martial Rite)
As you finish the rite, the blade is fully restored whole and unblemished as if that Orc hadn’t just sundered it with a dastardly blow. It’s the least you can do after using the innkeeper’s sword to kill that barbarian who burst through the door with murder in his eyes. Level: 1 Category: Arming Time: Special Duration: Permanent Component Cost: Focus worth 30 gp, plus 1/5th of the item's cost in materials Special Key Skill: Endurance (no check)
A single weapon or suit of armor is completely repaired during an extended rest. You can repair a single ammunition during a short rest. In cases where you attempt to repair an item not on any price list, the DM determines the cost. Focus: A set of artisan's tools worth 30 gp.
Craft Arms and Armor (Level 4 Martial Rite)
Working day and night, you finally complete your work. The hot blade hisses as you quench it in water, while raising it reflects the guttering light in the hearth behind you. Level: 4 Category: Arming Time: Special Duration: Permanent Component Cost: Focus worth 350 gp, plus 1/3rd of the item's cost in materials Special Key Skill: Endurance (no check required)
A single magic weapon or suit of magic armor is created over a period of days. Additionally, you can craft lesser arms and armor if you so choose. Note that you cannot create magic items beyond the scope of simple weapons or armor (e.g. Magic Armor +2).
It takes a number of days equal to the type of armor or weapon you're attempting to craft:
Superior One-Handed Melee/Ranged - TBD
Superior Two-Handed Melee/Ranged - TBD
Focus: A set of smithery tools (including tongs, hammers, coal, an anvil, a hearth and other miscellaneous tools) worth 350 gp. Note you must own a storefront in order to house these tools.
Stand Your Ground (Level 5 Martial Rite) Standing between the lines you've drawn in the dirt, you turn back blow after blow. Covered in beads of sweat, you cover your comrade's escape down the alleyway. Level: 5 Category: Guard Time: Special Duration: Until broken Component Cost: 1 Action Point Key Skill: Endurance
You draw the proverbial lines in the sand with your foot. When performing the ritual, you choose an origin to ward against - artillery, brute, controller, lurker, skirmisher, soldier or all. The last option applies a –5 penalty to your check. It requires 1 round to inscribe per square and you must declare what squares you will attempt to ward before the end of the rite. Note you can only ward a number of squares equal to your move rate. An affected creature whose level is lower than your Endurance check result minus 10 cannot pass over the line, affect creatures on the other side of the boundry, or affect the boundary in any way. Other foes of different origin take force damage equal to your Endurance check result when passing through the boundary, which breaks the ward. Note that you can still take actions, however you cannot abandon the ward or it breaks.
Has anyone else seen Mongoose Publishing's Quintessential Fighter for 4th edition? It includes a system for Martial Rituals similar to what's been discussed here.
Really? I haven't been able to find any info about it online. Could you post the approach Mongoose takes? thanks!
One of the things this makes me think of is "Kings Magic" the "Rites of Kings" --- a flavorful name for your Obesiance --- various movies including... excaliber , for instance A ritual which binds your weapon to you so that it cant be used against you... or maybe the first time it is used against you, that use is at a serious penalty, or bound by blood so only those of your bloodline will be able to use it well. I know some of that could be in old fashioned magic items but I like the idea that some Martial ritual at high enough level bleeds back into a very magical flavor.
One of the things this makes me think of is "Kings Magic" the "Rites of Kings" --- a flavorful name for your Obesiance --- various movies including... excaliber , for instance A ritual which binds your weapon to you so that it cant be used against you... or maybe the first time it is used against you, that use is at a serious penalty, or bound by blood so only those of your bloodline will be able to use it well. I know some of that could be in old fashioned magic items but I like the idea that some Martial ritual at high enough level bleeds back into a very magical flavor.
Yeah, I like that. A PC could bind a weapon to himself, maybe anyone else wielding it gets a -1 to hit or something like that.
NPCs could quite easily have similar but stronger bondings, though you don't really need a game mechanic for that especially. Such an item might be an artifact or other similarly special magic item.
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