4e Fan Creations and House RulesWorking on variant powers? Statting up a PC race or your version of a monster? Creating or converting an adventure? Put it here!
Right but were did all those silly magic items come from ;-) and if the concept is interesting enough then making it a "Rite of binding" is more fun.
Great idea Garthanos! I could see this divided into 3 rites by tier, maybe the heroic one is just a penalty (equal to proficiency bonus with the weapon) to enemies using it against you, paragon prevents enemy from using powers with weapon keyword with weapon against you, and epic take ongoing damage for each round they wield it?
I've just finished my rough draft of a 3 rites, what do you think?
Heroic Weapon Form Sweat flies from your hair as your blade whirls about you in preparation for battle.
Choose an at-will, an encounter, and a daily attack power to create a weapon form. When you successfully perform the at-will and encounter powers in this order make an Acrobatics/Athletics check if you miss with your daily power to determine your benefits (in addition to any other benefits of missing)
Athletics/Acrobatics Check.....Miss Result
19 or lower..........Make a basic melee attack against the same target
20-39..........Make the at-will attack against the same target
40 or higher.........Make the encounter attack again against the same target
You may apply your form once per encounter until you take an extended rest during which time you may create a new weapon form. Practicing the form requires one hour which may be taken from your extended rest (you only require 5 hours sleep).
Signature Weapon Your blade has become synonymous with you wherever you travel, as your enemies will learn.
Level: 6
Cost: Special
Category: Obeisance
Duration: Special
Key Skill: Intimidate
Choose one weapon to bond with – you expend a healing surge and reduce your maximum number of healing surges for as long as you are bonded to the weapon. The bond lasts until you choose to dismiss it. Until then, any enemy wielding the weapon against you or your allies suffers an attack penalty according to the results of an Intimidate check.
Intimidate check.....Enemy's attack penalty
19 or lower............-2
20-39...................-5
40 or higher...........-10
Work Through Pain Closing your eyes and gritting your teeth you forget about the searing poison in your veins.
Level: 3
Cost: Special
Category: Meditation
Duration: Short rest
Key Skill: Endurance
With this rite you suppress one enduring condition of your choice, but you may only spend a limited number of healing surges during the short rest according to your Endurance check.
Endurance check.........Healing Surges you can expend
19 or lower......0
20-39.............1
40 or higher.....2
I don't know, something doesn't seem right about them. Those sorts of effects could be applied through Feats without the expense of a marginal amount of Healing Surges to acquire combat benefits. You could even extend them into creating new Encounter or Daily powers that are akin to stances.
My thoughts regarding Rituals (or Rites in this case) are to grant noncombat-related benefits that allow a Martial character to extend his sphere of influence. My immediate thoughts went towards a Fighter version of a reskinned Eye of Alarm,
I don't know, something doesn't seem right about them. Those sorts of effects could be applied through Feats without the expense of a marginal amount of Healing Surges to acquire combat benefits. You could even extend them into creating new Encounter or Daily powers that are akin to stances.
My thoughts regarding Rituals (or Rites in this case) are to grant noncombat-related benefits that allow a Martial character to extend his sphere of influence. My immediate thoughts went towards a Fighter version of a reskinned Eye of Alarm,
A healing surge does feel costly for benefit of the signature weapon... in particular because of the true infrequency of an opponent gaining access to and attempting to use your weapon against you, heck in D&D isnt this more likely to be you mind controlled and using your weapon against allies?
Working through the pain is different because it seems like it could be used only when needed.
Heroic weapon form also makes using it mostly under your own control and so likely to come up in battle, it is fighting against something people really dont like ...the uselessness of losing their daily when it fails. And it feels like someone using a "kata" attack sequence so that is rather cool.
And yes Eye of Alarm could be reskinned nicely ... call it "Ears of the Wolf"
Last edited by Garthanos; 23rd February 2009 at 11:12 AM..
I don't know, something doesn't seem right about them. Those sorts of effects could be applied through Feats without the expense of a marginal amount of Healing Surges to acquire combat benefits. You could even extend them into creating new Encounter or Daily powers that are akin to stances.
My thoughts regarding Rituals (or Rites in this case) are to grant noncombat-related benefits that allow a Martial character to extend his sphere of influence. My immediate thoughts went towards a Fighter version of a reskinned Eye of Alarm,
Yeah Moniker, you're right that those rites I posted earlier were treading into combat territory too much.
Still, I still think there's lots of potential for this concept, even with rites that have no effect in combat - which I agree is the better direction.
I'll propose a couple rites in this vein:
*Herculean Effort (increase carry/lift/drag limits)
*Scout (numbers & types of foes, possibly other info like hostages, etc)
*Scavenge (with a short rest treat an improvised weapon as a simple weapon, or a mis-sized suit of armor as -2 AC but useable for an encounter)
I think Herculean Effort is a good model for the "Skills +" variety of rite, which enhances one skill (in this case attribute) in a specific use.
Gauge Opponent Studying your future opponent in action, you size up their prowess.
Level: 2
Cost: 1 healing surge if opponent is of higher level
Category: Strategy
Duration: Requires a short rest
Key Skill: Insight/Perception
When you observe a warrior in action during a short rest you learn about their fighting style.
Insight/Perception Check.....Result (cumulative)
19 or lower......................Whether they are higher or lower level; and their tier.
20-39.............................Role; and if you recognize their fighting style.
40 or higher.....................Their exact level; and their main attack power.
Herculean Effort Straining yourself to the breaking point, you gather every ounce of strength you have.
You increase your ability to carry, lift and drag according to the results of an Athletics check.
Athletics Check.....Result
19 or lower..........You can carry your Strength x 15, lift your Strength x 30, and push or drag your Strength x 65. Gain +2 bonus to Strength check to open a portcullis.
20-39.................You can carry your Strength x 20, lift your Strength x 40, and push or drag your Strength x 80. Gain +4 bonus to Strength check to open a portcullis.
40 or higher.........You can carry your Strength x 30, lift your Strength x 50, and push or drag your Strength x 100. Gain +6 bonus to Strength check to open a portcullis.
Rally Lungs burning, you give a fiery speech, elevating the morale of your followers.
Level: 3
Cost: 1 healing surge
Category: Obeisance
Duration: Until next short rest
Key Skill: Diplomacy/Intimidate
During a short rest, you inspire a group of NPCs, elevating their combat effectiveness according to the result of your Diplomacy or Intimidate check.
Diplomacy/Intimidate Check.....Result (cumulative)
19 or lower..........................A number of noncombatants equal to your level become minions.
20-39.................................A number of minions equal to you half your level become standard creatures.
40 or higher.........................A number of standard creatures equal to one quarter your level (rounded up) become elite creatures, applying a class template.
Strengthen Defenses In anticipation of the coming siege, you barricade doors, shore up the walls, and create trapped choke points.
Level: 3
Cost: 1 healing surge, special
Category: Strategy
Duration: Until next extended rest
Key Skill: History
This rite allows you to draw on your knowledge of military history and siege warfare to increase the hit points of your defenses, create arrow slits, and create difficult terrain according to the results of your History check. You may also have time to create a trap or two.
History Check...Door/Wall HP bonus...# Extra Arrow Slits...# Squares of Difficult Terrain...Traps (cost 100 gp per level)
19 or lower......5......1......4......1 trap half your level
20-39............10.....2......8.......1 trap equal to your level
40 or higher....15.....3......12......2 traps equal to your level or 3 half your level
Sundering Bash Positioning carefully against the marble pillar, you back up, take a deep breath, and charge at it.
Level: 2
Cost: 1 healing surge
Category: Might
Duration: During a short rest
Key Skill: Athletics
Increase your damage done against an object, or gain a Strength bonus to break a wall or door, according to the result of an Athletics check.
Athletics Check.....Extra Damage/Strength bonus to break wall or door
19 or lower...........+ 1[W]/+2
20-39.................+2 [W]/+4
40 or higher.........+3 [W]/+6
I'd love to see more ideas in this thread - there's a lot of potential for interesting rites. I've attached a .pdf of my work today on a couple martial rites.
And, you heard it from me first, martial rites of some form will be in Martial Power 2.
I'd love to see more ideas in this thread - there's a lot of potential for interesting rites. I've attached a .pdf of my work today on a couple martial rites.
Wow that rally effect of upgrading from minion to story significant character is a very powerful effect... mechanically you have made them 4x as effective... and in some ways you have also turned them into the kind that gets stories told about them. Legends of people fighting against uneven odds and what have you.... this is certainly something of mythic porportion. If you wanted to limit it perhaps it can only be done if they are in some ways suffering defeat or notably out numbered. Or make that condition a modifier on the skill roll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickleaf
And, you heard it from me first, martial rites of some form will be in Martial Power 2.
Hmmm, ok you managed to open your mouth first so I will just second the idea.
Wow that rally effect of upgrading from minion to story significant character is a very powerful effect... mechanically you have made them 4x as effective... and in some ways you have also turned them into the kind that gets stories told about them. Legends of people fighting against uneven odds and what have you.... this is certainly something of mythic porportion. If you wanted to limit it perhaps it can only be done if they are in some ways suffering defeat or notably out numbered. Or make that condition a modifier on the skill roll.
Yeah, I reduced the power a bit, make it a level 12, and renamed it "Call to Arms".
I'm working on the forced march rite, and it required me to ad lib some rules missing in the DMG. Thing is I'm having trouble figuring out how the rite benefits PCs at higher levels. Any ideas?
FORCED MARCH (NEW RULES)
Normally a character can’t travel more than 10 hours in one day. An additional hour of travel requires a character to make a DC 20 Endurance check. Success buys the character another hour, while failure costs the character a healing surge. Then the check is repeated at DC 25, then DC 30, and so on. A character without healing surges who fails a check takes damage equal to his level; at 0 HP the character collapses. A character cannot regain healing surges or hit points lost to a forced march until she or he takes an extended rest.
Forced March Time and fatigue are meaningless now. One foot before the other. It is the soldier's way.
Level: 1 Cost: Special Category: Exploration Duration: Lasts until extended rest Key Skill: Endurance
You push yourself and your companions to keep traveling despite exhaustion, shouldering the packs of frailer people, and serving as an example to the rest with your pure grit. An Endurance check determines how successful you are. You cannot use this rite when traveling overland at double pace.
Endurance Check.....Result (cumulative)
19 or lower...............Each time you succeed an Endurance check during a forced march you may take the healing surge loss that one companion would suffer by lightening their burden.
20-39......................You follow a steady pace. Spend X number of healing surges, where X determines how many extra hours your group can travel without the DC of the Endurance check increasing above 20. After this time however, the DC jumps to what it would have been if it were increasing all along.
40 or higher...............??
Yeah, I reduced the power a bit, make it a level 12, and renamed it "Call to Arms".
The extra ordinary effect of a larger number of people performing with heroic stature seems to have occurred in legend/history but the situations were rarish and mythic, I think the game should indeed enable rare and mythic things to happen... it could involve high level religion or diplomacy (... but never intimidation only the lower end of effects can be achieved that way) and if the effect is high enough on the skill as to seem like a critical hit... its actually kind of cool.
Powerful can be ok if it brings something cool to the table.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickleaf
I'm working on the forced march rite, and it required me to ad lib some rules missing in the DMG. Thing is I'm having trouble figuring out how the rite benefits PCs at higher levels. Any ideas?
Remember as a rite / ritual the user only had to spend time and/or money to get it.. it isn't eating up a capability slot so if it doesn't benefit at higher levels it doesn't mean the ability isn't worthwhile.
I think Martial Rites frequently take more time to learn less money than Arcane and Religious rituals.
I was looking at signature weapon, you upped the power on it a bit making it more appealing, I'd say that is a good call.
Another signature weapon idea
It might always make its way back to its owner... if taken that person loses it or is forced to give it up to someone else who then has it stolen or it gets stuck in a wound (or in between floor stones after a severe attack).. or whatever and by seeming happen chance it eventually ends up in the hands of its rightful owner.
I can't remember who but somebody on this list had there world set up where objects might become spontaneously magical the subject of these rites would be prime targets for that effect.
There's a group of rituals in Mongoose Publishing's Quintessential Fighter which are, in fact, called "martial rituals" and are meant for the less magically inclined party members. I can't comment on their usefulness, unfortunately; I don't own the book.
__________________ Khitan General: Conan, what is best in life? Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!
Another signature weapon idea
It might always make its way back to its owner... if taken that person loses it or is forced to give it up to someone else who then has it stolen or it gets stuck in a wound (or in between floor stones after a severe attack).. or whatever and by seeming happen chance it eventually ends up in the hands of its rightful owner.
Interesting idea, and the one about it becoming spontaneously magical too. I'll have to mull on those a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilgenius8000
There's a group of rituals in Mongoose Publishing's Quintessential Fighter which are, in fact, called "martial rituals" and are meant for the less magically inclined party members. I can't comment on their usefulness, unfortunately; I don't own the book.
Someone else mentioned that book a while back, but I don't know anything about it.
I like this idea, but I think it's been overdeveloped. For one, they are so much like the magic rituals that the only thing missing is the magic. So, in the spirit of friendly critique:
Campfire Watch: Having a character awake on watch gives the party an active perception check already, and this ritual duplicates a bardic ability/ritual in PHB II. Finally, 1 healing surge is not enough of a sacrifice for something a player will use every night and provides a benefit greater than the one healing surge it costs.
Forced March: I think this should be either Endurance or Diplomacy for a check
Gauge Opponent: Seeing an opponent in action before a fight is a corner-case, and I think this could be better handled by a knowledge check
Herculean Effort: This steps on Feat of Strength
Leap of Faith: Far too good and steps on Feather Fall
Modify Trap: I think this would be better covered by an expansion of the thievery skill
Scavenge: seems like an attempt to bypass the improvised weapon rules.
Scout: This is covered by a perception check
Signature Weapon: This seems to step on the Kensai paragon path
Sleuth's eye: No text, but beware the expansion of the Perception Skill
Strengthen the defenses: I think this codifies what creative players can already do, but the duration should be permanent, and there should be a time component to prepare the site that scales with the change
Sundering Bash: Steps on feat of strength
Warrior's Code: This is either diplomacy or role-playing, but does not need a ritual and does not need mechanical support.
Weapon Form: too good to be true and steps on the magic weapon that can change into any weapon.
Work Through Pain: Too good to be true, and really should be Will-based
Herculean Effort: This steps on Feat of Strength
Sundering Bash: Steps on feat of strength
I think they need to follow closer the idea in Feat of Strength.
I kind of like the idea of Feat of Strength
fueled by a healing surges...
Feat of Strength gives a burst of strength...based on a nature roll
19 or lower +1
20–29 +2
30–39 +5
40 or higher +10
but as a normal magical ritual it has the herb bag and incense
mixed with affecting others and 10 minutes and 30gp to use cost.
A meditation that only affected self and involved expending a healing surge
could be different enough to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadrian the Builder
Signature Weapon: This seems to step on the Kensai paragon path
Hmm I would say there is nothing in the kensai paragon that currently
does this... are you saying there should be or are you thinking that it couldn't or shouldn't be a martial ritual? when the effect could be... but isnt currently
in a paragon path?
Note the swordmage has a weapon binding ritual which lets him summon back his weapon or reconstruct it... this is rather similar to something that exists currently as a ritual as well..(and could include the reconstruction in an advanced form of the same) no harm no foul...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadrian the Builder
Weapon Form: too good to be true and steps on the magic weapon that can change into any weapon.
Huhhhh weapon "form" does not refer to a weapon changing shape but rather using a sequence of actions to derive power from that sequence. This makes me think you arent reading the ideas carerfully enough to be "critical".
Working through the pain..is too powerful as you call it too good to be true...so lets just point out what makes it over the top so if the idea can be improved on.. it might be. Constructive criticism means saying why.
It puts a pause on a single "condition" effect that includes presumedly any of the following.
BLINDED DAZED DEAFENED DOMINATED DYING HELPLESS IMMOBILIZED PETRIFIED PRONE RESTRAINED SLOWED STUNNED SURPRISED UNCONSCIOUS WEAKENED
Aren't many of these already or at least often cancellable with a saving throw? Is your character foregoing making saves the condition normally granted in order to suppress the state in a temporary way? You are left in a state where you cant spend any healing surges usually this means can't heal presumedly you couldn't regain any healing surges either right?
You could specify a single condition which normally allows saves to end and that you are foregoing the save to hold off the effect, that might not be enough... for instance
you are now dominated... but with no skill check you suppress the condition?
Last edited by Garthanos; 15th March 2009 at 08:55 PM..
Ok, a quick disclaimer: I only have the PHB, DMG, and MM. So some of the things you're talking about I have no clue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthanos
Huhhhh weapon "form" does not refer to a weapon changing shape but rather using a sequence of actions to derive power from that sequence. This makes me think you arent reading the ideas carerfully enough to be "critical".
Garthanos, I recently changed Weapon Form so that it allows you to mimic another weapon with your same weapon. It sounds slightly different but similar to what Hadrian talks about.
Quote:
Working through the pain...
I changed this one so that it only operates DURING a short rest. Since rounds don't stop after a combat encounter ends, if you're suffering ongoing damage or some other persistent condition, you can temporarily put off making saves during the short rest (which rest of party benefits from even if you don't). Of course, you can make other preparations during the rest. I hope it reads as I intend it to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadrian the Builder
I like this idea, but I think it's been overdeveloped. For one, they are so much like the magic rituals that the only thing missing is the magic.
I think this gets back to a core debate about how all powers in 4e feel similar but play differently. While I haven't playtested any of these, that's my guess for how they'll compare with magic rituals. Just a hunch.
Quote:
So, in the spirit of friendly critique:
Thanks, great feedback!
Quote:
Campfire Watch: Having a character awake on watch gives the party an active perception check already, and this ritual duplicates a bardic ability/ritual in PHB II. Finally, 1 healing surge is not enough of a sacrifice for something a player will use every night and provides a benefit greater than the one healing surge it costs.
Ah, didn't know about the bardic ritual, thanks. Don't necessarily agree with your other points, but duplicating another class' features I don't want to do. Back to the drawing board.
Quote:
Forced March: I think this should be either Endurance or Diplomacy for a check
Interesting...
Quote:
Gauge Opponent: Seeing an opponent in action before a fight is a corner-case, and I think this could be better handled by a knowledge check
Hold on. I agree that the ability to determine a creature's powers duplicates a monster knowledge check. However, a monster knowledge check can't tell you a creature's role or level. Furthermore, this is intended to be used with NPCs, which follow different rules than monsters. Making a Nature/History check seems kind of goofy to size up a human opponent, doesn't it?
Quote:
Herculean Effort: This steps on Feat of Strength
What's that? Sounds like another example of great minds think alike.
Quote:
Leap of Faith: Far too good and steps on Feather Fall
Not at all. This ONLY works when diving into water. Period. It's a circumstancial ability that keys off Acrobatics - a rare trained skill.
Quote:
Modify Trap: I think this would be better covered by an expansion of the thievery skill
Maybe. However there was a Dragon article about creating traps that I was going to use as guidelines.
Quote:
Scavenge: seems like an attempt to bypass the improvised weapon rules.
Hmmm. Do you think it's fair to allow a skilled warrior with time to prepare to bypass the improvised weapon rules? I don't know, I'm sincerely asking.
Scout: This is covered by a perception check
Actually, that's not true. Perception doesn't allow you to notice a secret door across a chasm or to search something you can't physically reach. Scout does. That's the key difference.
Signature Weapon: This seems to step on the Kensai paragon path
Actually, I see it as complementing. 1st, nothing in Kensai has a similar ability to this rite. 2nd, this is a rite a Kensai would love to take.
Sleuth's eye: No text, but beware the expansion of the Perception Skill
Sorry, this is a work-in-progress. Why the concern about the Perception skill in particular?
Strengthen the defenses: I think this codifies what creative players can already do, but the duration should be permanent, and there should be a time component to prepare the site that scales with the change
Yeah it is codifying something creative players can already do...but that's how I view much of the ruleset anyhow. I mean a wizard says "I spy on him through my magic" and we need rules, but a ranger says "I barricade the door with whatever I can find" and we should wing it?
Another concern about codifying martial rituals I've heard is that they limit what PCs without the Ritual Warrior feat can do. My rebuttal is to look at how useful Ritual Caster! So many archetypes of magic are in there... are they limiting those magic-users without Ritual Caster?
Quote:
Warrior's Code: This is either diplomacy or role-playing, but does not need a ritual and does not need mechanical support.
I think you're right about this one. I'll cut it out.
Quote:
Weapon Form: too good to be true and steps on the magic weapon that can change into any weapon.
Why too good? And what's this magic weapon? (I don't have AV)
Garthanos, I recently changed Weapon Form so that it allows you to mimic another weapon with your same weapon. It sounds slightly different but similar to what Hadrian talks about.
OK picture me confused. I seem to be always responding to an older version .
perhaps you should have worked out changes in the html / forum post and kept updating there.... I updated my pdf and other criticisms make more sense.
The Feat of Strength is along with the Swordmage is in FR players handbook... shouldn't have been called "Feat of" as game has that as a reserved word from my perspective. While I suppose Surge of Strength could be confused with healing surges ;-).
I think this gets back to a core debate about how all powers in 4e feel similar but play differently. While I haven't playtested any of these, that's my guess for how they'll compare with magic rituals. Just a hunch.
I agree... on that point... kings magic is magic of a different flavor warlord flavor no doubt.
Also it might be worthwhile to expand some a skill that ought to be able to accomplish some effect so that they are covered... ie
If perception doesn't allow you to notice a secret door across a chasm or to search something you can't physically reach... then perhaps perception is being too narrowly defined, I am not sure we should need a martial rite to accomplish that expansion? Perhaps all it would take would be a higher DC if you can't physically reach the area.
Garthanos, I recently changed Weapon Form so that it allows you to mimic another weapon with your same weapon. It sounds slightly different but similar to what Hadrian talks about.
The term "Forms" is sometimes called "Kata" it is used in the martial arts to signify exercising through a series of moves in a practiced order to help instill muscle memory and learn good transitions between moves that may be otherwise un-related.
I thought I would mention you went from something having a real world meaning and connotation... what you changed it to doesn't make sense except for somebody wanting a literal English translation. I think this is what was meant by Hadrian when he said you may have overdeveloped the idea.
Last edited by Garthanos; 16th March 2009 at 01:17 AM..
Hmm, well I was following the rule that rites/rituals don't have a direct effect on combat. The older version of "Weapon Form" gave you a really nice benefit in combat, making it too useful. The current version makes it so that it's not so much the weapon as the warrior who wields it. For example, a skilled swordfighter might use the flat of his blade, treating his sword as a warhammer, or he could shift to a half-pommel grip and make lunging piercing attacks, using it as a spear. This makes it particularly useful to adopt a different form depending on the type of battle you're anticipating.
I like the idea of a kata, but I think it's better implemented in another mechanic besides rituals.
I like the idea of a kata, but I think it's better implemented in another mechanic besides rituals.
Possibly the problem is however the way kata are used is a very "daily ritual".
Ah hah... perhaps it needs to be a daily martial utility.
hmmm... Lets see here is the uses and limits of realistic kata.
a clean transition makes the follow up action slightly faster and easier to predict but better in quality (in real life somebody who is using a single style of martial art can end up having too much pattern in their moves and it is as much a flaw of regulated Kata as anything.)
I think my encounter recovery rule would be of use for simulating this... where a particularly good useage of an encounter or daily allows reusage.
If you use a kata you can improve the performance but with an even higher difficulty for reusage.(because you have made it easier to read).
I guess the above takes it firmly out of discussion here but sounds rather cool
PHB II is introducing a no-prereqs feat that gives a scaling attack bonus based on what tier you're in. You could now potentially use your ORIGINAL idea, with the attack bonus, that we all talked you out of. Simply state that it is an alternative to the PHB II feat and can't stack with it. Maybe differentiate it a bit, flavorize it.
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