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Ok, there have been a lot of multiclassing house rules suggestions.
After having not played for several months, our group is considering starting 4E back up again. One of the issues for one of the players who enjoyed multi-classing in 3.5 is how lame 4E multi-classing turned out to be. So, I wondered: What if 3.5 multi-classing was merged into 4E? What would be the result?
Here is what I came up with as a quick first cut. Please critique.
The player can use current core rules multi-classing or quasi-3.5 multi-classing, but not both (I think this would be required so that the PC could not dip into one class with a feat for one ability and into another class with levels for multiple abilities).
If using 3.5 multi-classing, the PC gets some of the low level abilities of the new class while he is multi-classed into that class. It's almost as if he started over at level one. His level for those abilities do not count towards the levels for other classes. So, a 10 Rogue / 10 Ranger would only have +2D6 Sneak Attack and +1D6 Hunter's Quarry.
The PC must take at least 3 levels in a class before multi-classing and must take at least 3 levels in the multi-class class before switching into some other or the original class (this rule is needed because of how many abilities switching into a new class would give). This means that a PC would be giving up (at a minimum) his level 29 Daily power(s).
Class bonuses to defense would not stack, the better of the two would be used. Healing Surges per day would average round down. Most character level advancement would be the same except for Powers Known which would be on a per-class basis. The PC acquires all class abilities except those that could normally be purchased with a feat (i.e. armor proficiency, weapon proficiency and skills from the new class), otherwise, it could be like acquiring a plethora of feats. He gains Implements, Class Features, At Will powers, etc. and is limited as per a normal PC in that class (e.g. a Ranger multi-class would need to pick a Fighting Style). The PC would have to still have 10 levels in a class in order to take a PrC (so he could not do it before level 14). But at 21st level, the PC could still take an Epic Destiny. The PC could have multiple power sources and roles.
Since most powers are not really level dependent (damage powers often are), this might be viable. More versatility but less damage, but not heavily so.
If the player just multi-classes a few levels, this would hardly be an issue. A 10/10 or 5/5/5/5 PC might be a little handcuffed though.
I am concerned a bit with Rogues getting Twin Strike, etc. How does this work out?
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
Any defender would get combat superiority from the fighter. Any striker would try to get at least 1 more striker level for extra damage. A leader could get an extra leader level for the word class feature. Seems very much overpowered.
Tbh I find multiclassing reasonably balanced and only weak at paragon. I've houseruled that paragon multiclass gives you a free at will from the second class and the ability to recharge powers of the second class with an action point at 11 and a free class or multiclass feat at 16 to make up for the lack of paragon features. Other than that I think it is fine.
Any defender would get combat superiority from the fighter. Any striker would try to get at least 1 more striker level for extra damage. A leader could get an extra leader level for the word class feature. Seems very much overpowered.
Overpowered how?
PS. I do not understand your concept of extra striker damage or "word" class features. Please explain.
Say a Paladin 3 takes 3 levels of Fighter to get Combat Superiority (he would get it at level 4, but would still need to take 2 more levels of Fighter).
That's a 6th level PC that is very versatile with 4 At Wills, 2 level 1 encounter attack powers, 2 level 1 daily attack powers, 2 level 2 utility daily powers, and 2 level 3 encounter attack powers.
But, the PC can only use one of these at a time.
He gives up 1 level 5 daily attack power and 1 level 6 daily utility power. 2 more powerful daily powers for 4 less powerful encounter and daily powers (the At Wills add versatility, not power).
He can mark with Combat Challenge or Divine Challenge, but not both at the same time.
At level 11, he cannot take a PrC class and gain 11th level PrC powers. He has to minimally wait until level 14.
He cannot swap out lower level powers with higher level powers until 3 levels later.
There are not just advantages here, there are also restrictions here. Yes, the PC is extremely versatile. But, overpowered? And what about higher levels when other PCs each have a 15 level Daily Attack power and his highest level Daily Attack power is 9th level (highest level Utility power is 10th level)?
I'm not convinced (yet).
Were 3.5 Fighter 6 / Wizard 3 PCs more powerful than Fighter 9 or Wizard 9 PCs? Isn't the concept similar?
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Originally Posted by Nymrohd
Tbh I find multiclassing reasonably balanced and only weak at paragon. I've houseruled that paragon multiclass gives you a free at will from the second class and the ability to recharge powers of the second class with an action point at 11 and a free class or multiclass feat at 16 to make up for the lack of paragon features. Other than that I think it is fine.
My player does not find it unbalanced.
He finds it to be not multi-classing. Gaining a skill and a once per day ability does not make one a Cleric.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
Last edited by KarinsDad; 10th February 2009 at 05:57 AM..
I think your system is messy, and goes in many ways against the design philosophy of 4e, but I don't think it will horribly break your game balance during play. Let your player try it out and carefully monitor for unexpected synergistic effects.
FYI, you understand that using Paragon Multiclassing rules as written, or by taking one of your second class's Paragon Paths, you will eventually gain nearly a 50/50 distribution of powers towards the end of paragon tier? That seems fairly multiclass to me.
Last edited by aurance; 10th February 2009 at 06:49 AM..
If they start their Paragon class at level 14, or level 17, they should still stop receiving paragon abilities at 21. The character will have plenty of juicy stuff from their multiclass, and doesn't need to have a full complement of Paragon powers, especially not overlapping with their Epic Destiny.
If they start their Paragon class at level 14, or level 17, they should still stop receiving paragon abilities at 21. The character will have plenty of juicy stuff from their multiclass, and doesn't need to have a full complement of Paragon powers, especially not overlapping with their Epic Destiny.
I was going to give the player the choice. Continue in Paragon and start Epic later, or switch to Epic. Either way, they give up something.
But I can see where you are coming from.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
It may or may not be of any interest to you, but the multiclassing modifications which I'm using can be found here planesailing / Multiclassing-Fixed
Cheers
Thanks PS.
Our group has discussed this (via a plethora of Emails). One of the factors is what we call "dabbling" in a class instead of multiclassing.
The problem with the 4E (and many similar) solutions is that one dabbles in the other class. One gets a class skill, and none or one of the class features or a partial power.
The term multiclassing should not even be used. It's extremely far from any real multiclassing. The solution above results in a PC that really is a Fighter / Cleric (i.e. has many facets of both classes), not a Fighter with an extremely tiny portion of his repetoire being a single cleric skill and a single cleric power like 4E.
So far, several of our group appears to like the solution above (some are ambivalent, but I suspect those players will not be multiclassing).
We did put the restriction on it that a PC can only multiclass once due to the front end loading of this system and there are some other power restrictions that are only applicable to our action point house rules. But overall, I think it is going to work out.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
I agree, it is the 'dabblers only' approach which I think I most dislike about the 4e multiclassing.
That is the main reason why in my approach I went with a "you start by swapping one of your at-wills for an at-will from the multiclass", since it is the at-will abilities which often end up being a class-defining feature. My approach also allows members of a class to gain additional features from the trouser-leg of the class they didn't put their first leg into (so a brawny rogue can also be an artful dodger, or an infernal warlock can sign up to a fey pact too).
It has worked well for us to date.
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If using 3.5 multi-classing, the PC gets some of the low level abilities of the new class while he is multi-classed into that class. It's almost as if he started over at level one. His level for those abilities do not count towards the levels for other classes. So, a 10 Rogue / 10 Ranger would only have +2D6 Sneak Attack and +1D6 Hunter's Quarry.
The PC must take at least 3 levels in a class before multi-classing and must take at least 3 levels in the multi-class class before switching into some other or the original class (this rule is needed because of how many abilities switching into a new class would give). This means that a PC would be giving up (at a minimum) his level 29 Daily power(s).
This seems like a necessary restriction, although is it true that the only things which are particularly affected are healing word bonus dice and the paragon/epic threshold points for striker damage? So a Fighter/Wizard wouldn't be particularly inconvenienced by this?
Another issue which I'm not sure on from what you've written - would it be non symmetric (in that a Fighter/Wizard would have more hp than a wizard/fighter, because the Fighter adds more to his Con at 1st level to determine base hp)?
Cheers
__________________ Plane Sailing
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"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
Another issue which I'm not sure on from what you've written - would it be non symmetric (in that a Fighter/Wizard would have more hp than a wizard/fighter, because the Fighter adds more to his Con at 1st level to determine base hp)?
The first class has to still be considered the primary class in this model.
For example, the Fighter / Wizard gets 5 more hit points, most of the armor proficiencies, and many of the weapon proficiences.
The Wizard / Fighter gets one extra skill and implements.
But, I see your point. It's difficult to make it balanced in both directions because the Fighter is more front end loaded (the equivalent of 17 feats, skills, and class features) than the Wizard (15 total on the list, but not quite that versatile).
If I change the rule to giving armor and weapon proficiences and possible one or more skills, that makes it even more front loaded, requiring something like 5 levels in each class to make up for it.
I think the better solution is to give each PC a set number of abilities (not from the normal power list) that they can choose from. The Wizard / Fighter could pick armor proficiences (unlikely) or weapon proficiences (likely) or skills (unlikely) or class features (likely). The Fighter / Wizard could pick one or more implements (likely) or a class feature (likely) or a skill (unlikely).
I'm thinking 5 of these. So, the Wizard / Fighter (if he wanted) could ignore the fighter class features and pick up leather, hide, and chainmail armor along with melee and ranged weapons.
There are already feats to pick up proficiences and skills, so another multiclass feat to pick up a class feature or implement would be nice to have for later levels.
This would be like gaining 5 feats and several low level powers in exchange for always delaying the higher level powers to 3 levels later (assuming that the PC only takes 3 levels in the second class).
I do like your system (nice and clean), but at one class feature, martial weapon group, or armor proficiency per feat, it would take forever to become a fairly subpar Fighter / Wizard because there would be no feats left over for the other bread and butter feat elements of Fighters or Wizards.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
I have to admit that I didn't even consider weapon proficiency groups and armour access when doing mine! For simplicity I'm still not going to go there at the moment.
Of course, the fighter (and others) armour training from class is better than the similar feats - no ability requirements have to be met for it!
Perhaps in your situation it is easiest just to point out in your multiclassing document that those who want to be heavy armour wearing fighter-wizards should probably pick fighter first, those who want to be lightly armoured skilful fighter-wizards should probably pick wizard first ?
Cheers
__________________ Plane Sailing
(Enworld Admin)
If you need to email me click here
"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
Perhaps in your situation it is easiest just to point out in your multiclassing document that those who want to be heavy armour wearing fighter-wizards should probably pick fighter first, those who want to be lightly armoured skilful fighter-wizards should probably pick wizard first ?
Agreed. However, if I use the "you pick up 5 proficiences or skills or class features" rule, the Wizard / Fighter could use armor, he would just have a bit of MAD issues.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
That's a 6th level PC that is very versatile with 4 At Wills, 2 level 1 encounter attack powers, 2 level 1 daily attack powers, 2 level 2 utility daily powers, and 2 level 3 encounter attack powers.
But, the PC can only use one of these at a time.
Can you clarify what it is that the PC can only use one of at a time? For example, can the PC use all four encounter powers?
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(the At Wills add versatility, not power).
This may be true in some cases, but it is easily disproven. Many at-wills gained will result in a more powerful character because they will have a better option in different circumstances. A paladin who picks up warlock at-wills, a rogue who picks up twin-strike, a fighter with righteous brand, etc.
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He can mark with Combat Challenge or Divine Challenge, but not both at the same time.
Does anything stop him from making with divine challenge and inflicting divine challenge damage _and_ making an immediate basic attack if the marked target attacks someone else?
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At level 11, he cannot take a PrC class and gain 11th level PrC powers. He has to minimally wait until level 14.
Does he get access to paragon feats at 11th and get +1 to all his stats? Does the needing to wait matter that much to someone who is already 14th, if you're making a game at that level? As a note, the general principle of 'sucks now to be overpowered later' is generally not desirable, no matter how much grandfathering it may have in D&D
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There are not just advantages here, there are also restrictions here. Yes, the PC is extremely versatile. But, overpowered? And what about higher levels when other PCs each have a 15 level Daily Attack power and his highest level Daily Attack power is 9th level (highest level Utility power is 10th level)?
Is being slightly worse in one combat per day (when their high level daily is used) reasonable recompense for being better in every other combat?
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Were 3.5 Fighter 6 / Wizard 3 PCs more powerful than Fighter 9 or Wizard 9 PCs?
Not usually.
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Isn't the concept similar?
Similar, but 4E classes are not designed the same way as 3e classes and even then the 3e comparison was more like 'Is a fighter 4 / barbarian 2 / ranger 2 / warblade 1 better than a fighter 9' and the answer is overwhelmingly yes.
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He finds it to be not multi-classing. Gaining a skill and a once per day ability does not make one a Cleric.
True, but is it overpowered for the use of a feat? Would more feats to get more powers be unbalanced? I think allowing the at-will like PS does is a big change there too.
At any rate, the actual way to do merges of classes in 4e is to design a new class. Ex: Swordmage. Anything else is mostly a trap, one way or another. A rogue who is 3 levels behind who gets hunter's quarry, fox's cunning, disruptive strike, split the tree, twin strike, nimble strike, and toughness or defensive mobility instead of whatever he's getting for the missing 3 levels is almost always better, except for a couple levels apparently where he gets nothing at all for the multiclassing (which seems odd too)
We ended up going with a system similar to PS's (although not identical):
The first multiclassing feat (called Multiclassing) gives the PC a single class feature of the new class and the use of any single class implement. The prerequisite is a 13 ability score in the main stat of the new class (i.e. a Wizard who then took Fighter would need a Str of 13).
The power swap feats work the same, but there is another power swap feat for At Will powers that can be acquired at second level.
There is also a new feat that allows a multiclass PC to acquire a Class feature of the new class. A character can multiclass into the same class (e.g. a Ranger could take both Fighting style class features).
There is no limit to the number of classes a PC can multiclass into, but he must take the Multiclassing feat anew for each class.
It's still class dabbling like 4E, but it does not have as serious of power creep issues that my earlier system had.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
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