Rules Recharging Player Powers

[Garthanos]

This idea came up in a thread with somebody who had problems grokking encounter and daily exploits... and it was buried deep enough that most folk probably stopped looking at the thread (fairly early on before this was brought up)

I don't have the level of difficulty getting encounters or dailies of the person who I presented it to but it occurred to me I would like feedback on it.


Pulling the Same Trick Twice

I read an idea once of using the monster creation rules for players as well as monsters... while way too extreme for my taste it did inspire this idea. My thinking is if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander

Dramatically speaking just because a character in a movie isn't repeating the same deception doesn't mean they aren't repeating a move that would be labeled as the same in the Game.

Realistically speaking the bad guys aren't going to catch the trick you just pulled on them every time but they sure will often enough especially when the effect is powerful and if you only barely catch them with it.

Repeatable moves are perhaps the least interesting from a game stand point... but if they arent reliably so this is less of an issue.

Concept. Allow powers to recharge kind of like the monsters. (But it can be fun to try and describe them a bit differently for flavor.)

Problem I don't like throwing more dice if I can help it and my first thought was allowing a critical roll to always recharge ok that could work ie. your adversary obviously didn't see what hit them and is less boring perhaps than max damage. What it doesn't give is good enough odds, well good enough if we compare to the monsters recharge.

Extending this idea a little further we make the does it recharge roll based on how well the roll succeeds, in other words if you beat the roll by a given number the ability can be used again this combat.

Basic Ideas

Encounter Powers : If you exceed your required roll by 6 you can pull the trick again this encounter

Daily Powers: if you exceed the roll by 8 you can pull the trick again before taking an extended rest.

What this "means" exactly varies a little depending on the power.

Martial Exploits
If your power fails to regenerate the trick has been revealed and you may have to wait till it isn't so fresh in everyone's mind, a critical failure and you may have lost confidence in that moves usefulness OK this is D&D no critical failure ;-).

Spells
Most spells have a minor focus item or component associated with them in addition to the mages implements. A serious success means that these auxiliary components are not fouled up in the performance of the spell. These components can generally be purified, or tuned or otherwise fixed given a short rest or in some cases they require a more serious amount of time (dailies)

Extravagant Poor Performance - option
if you fail your roll by far enough your opponent doesn't even notice you tried the exploit or your spell was interrupted in a way that left the components untouched.

The logic/brain twisting isn't too bad for those who need it.

How horrible do the numbers crunch ie what impact do they have?

Well players end up not being quite so afraid of loosing access to your abilities this might address usage hoarding....
Abilities tend to be less wasted when they are accidentally used against lower defense opponents...

Obviously you can probably throw a few more bad guys at the players.

[Garthanos]

Expected some .... uh, that sucks feedback but all I get is crickets.
Critique myself
1) the post was way too rambling
2) the idea is a bit extreme but is designed to appeal to edge-runner simulationists who might like to play D&D 4e instead of most of the people on the list.
3) the idea didnt take a controversial tone, its hard to tell but those seem to elicit lots of feedback.
4) I don't necessarily want to even reveal to my players how much they failed by.. so managing their ability recharge would be in my hands, hmm I can think of it as a reward system and compensation system ... "wow you rolled so bad you didnt even get out of the starting gate here, you can reuse that one" ... and "wow you did so well on that one you can even try it again later"..
5) should have kept the idea separate from its rationale better, maybe two posts, which would have allowed response to the core idea easier.

[Alex319]

I assume by "required roll" you mean attack roll, correct? (at least for attack powers).

What is the "required roll" for powers that are not attacks, such as utilities and racial powers?

How is this handled with powers that have multiple attacks? What about conjurations, which can make several attack rolls over a period of multiple rounds?

Also, this seems potentially very abusable at high levels. There are many powers as you get up into the paragon and epic tiers that allow you to give large bonuses to attack and severe penalties to target's defenses. (For example, Warlord's Favor, a level 1 encounter power, gives an ally +1+INT to attack rolls against one target for one round, and at high levels your INT bonus could approach 6-8.) Suppose you normally hit on a 10 - with a bonus of +8 to the attack roll you will hit on a 2, and recharge an encounter on 8 or higher and a daily on 10 or higher if you use them. This effectively more than doubles the use of those powers. And this problem is self-perpetuating - the more players can use their powers without expending them, the more opportunities they have to use the powers that give those big bonuses, so the more opportunities they will have to use their powers without expending them. It's easy to imagine a fight of 4-5 PCs versus 1 solo where they can keep that +8 up the whole fight because everyone is using that bonus to avoid expending their powers so they can use the bonus giving powers over and over again.

[Garthanos]

Originally Posted by Alex319

I assume by "required roll" you mean attack roll, correct? (at least for attack powers).

What is the "required roll" for powers that are not attacks, such as utilities and racial powers?

Thanks for the critique.

Yes for an attack powers with a single attack roll yup that works. The primary reason to use a roll that is a part of the action it is used with (that might not be an an attack.)

Abilities that don't have a single attack roll will associated will need to be granted a sort of saving throw for recovery.

Originally Posted by Alex319

. And this problem is self-perpetuating - the more players can use their powers without expending them, the more opportunities they have to use the powers that give those big bonuses, so the more opportunities they will have to use their powers without expending them.

There it is ! yup thanks, the reason to use a distinct threshold value that is independent of the other modifiers. ie if they are making a single attack roll power they could then compare the same die roll independently + level mod + attribute mod. versus a DC 20 + half power level. Dailies would still only allow another use that day. and encounters another use during that encounter.

If they arent making a distinct attack roll to invoke the power then they make a saving throw styled as above.

We could still say the die roll represents basic performance quality in terms of it being obvious or using up the components... but other modifiers to the end results are indepent of whether the power refreshes.

Does that work a little better (I know just adding a d6 roll like the monsters is getting prettier by the second)

Thanks

[Garthanos]

It occurred to me that using a saving throw (or reusing the attack quality roll for those which are attacks) models the "Trick" martial moves fairly well (and we could even up the difficulty of the reuse by the enemies wisdom) and exclude various feat and power bonuses and race bonuses to the power uses this check is not the attack itself but an auxiliary effect.

The deep resource brand moves like those featured martially by the barbarian or even some magical acts could be modeled better in a non-probabilistic fashion by allowing characters spend a second wind(energy) or maybe action points (luck) to reuse powers.

[silverwhisper]

this is an interesting concept. my immediate thought is that while interesting, doesn't this devalue the epic powers shape magic and epic trick, or worse, stack with 'em? if you include some language to preclude stacking, i think this would be fine--although i also feel that raising the threshold to beating the DC by 10 is more consistent with the numbers we tend to see in the RAW.

[Garthanos]

Originally Posted by silverwhisper

this is an interesting concept. my immediate thought is that while interesting, doesn't this devalue the epic powers shape magic and epic trick, or worse, stack with 'em? if you include some language to preclude stacking, i think this would be fine--although i also feel that raising the threshold to beating the DC by 10 is more consistent with the numbers we tend to see in the RAW.

The rules as written do have a few reuse power rules so yes they would need adjusted. For reference.

Trickster’s Control (24th level): If you roll an 18 or higher on the d20 when making the first attack roll for an encounter or daily attack power, that power is not expended.

Tricksters Control is one that very much resembles this idea and changing it to give a bonus on the reuse save ... we could also make Subtle Fighter .... and Careful Mage or other effects to improve this.... ( if they were feats they might be too close to must have feats?)

Powers like you mention that are totally reliable .... sort of stack (of course if the power is already reusable refreshing it has no real meaning right?)

The idea in general does indeed shift balance a bit, since the rule is trying to give a more perceivable logic and even at low levels pc's will be able to reuse powers ( ie it does make pcs more powerful and there best abilities are more likely to be available when they encounter the big bad.. even when they were tempted to use them earlier in the day)

I was thinking of the save having a DC of 20 + Wisdom of highest nearby ally of subject of the trick (is that the same as what you meant by +10)
this would against equal opponents require a roll of 20. Against someone 10 levels lower you would have to roll a 15 to reuse the power.

How about this idea the difficulty of the check is modified on
the level of the power you are using. I am level 10 the check to reuse
my level 10 power...

15 + highest enemy wisdom mod + level of the power/2

For martial powers wisdom mod makes sense but for arcane and similar... perhaps will would be a better fit ( minus 2 perhaps since defenses are more often enhanced than the base attribute?)

For the deep resource idea.
using a second wind / action point to enable reusing encounter powers well.... hmmm that is a thought what if action points and second winds were the normal way to use a daily power this would not preclude the recovery check though perhaps this would be 20 + level of the power/2

I always have a temptation to over complicate... feel free to call me on it

I need more heads to beat on this ... I think there is a core in there which will indeed give my D&D simulationist heart some smileys.

If the reuse is too infrequent well it would rightly be seen as an extremely rare irrelevance, to be forgotten in the heat of play.. if its too easy it could rebalance the game to far.

[ravenheart]

I think this calls for a simpler feature:

Recharge encounter power: Once per encounter as a free action, you can choose to recharge an encounter power of your choice. Immediately after you resolve an encounter power, the power recharges at the end of your turn a couple of rounds later. To determine how many rounds later, roll 1d4 and add
1 for heroic (attack, utility, racial and feat) powers aswell as class features,
2 for paragon powers and
3 for epic powers.

Recharge daily power: Once per day as a free action, you can choose to recharge a daily power of your choice by spending an action point. Immediately after you resolve an daily power, the power recharges at the end of your turn a couple of rounds later. To determine how many rounds later, roll 1d4 and add
2 for heroic (attack, utility, racial and feat) powers aswell as class features,
4 for paragon powers and
6 for epic powers.

(If the current encounter ends (if the power was used in an encounter), the power is restored after the next short rest.)

Thoughts?

[Garthanos]

Originally Posted by ravenheart

I think this calls for a simpler feature:

Recharge encounter power: Once per encounter as a free action, you can choose to recharge an encounter power of your choice. Immediately after you resolve an encounter power, the power recharges at the end of your turn a couple of rounds later. To determine how many rounds later, roll 1d4 and add
1 for heroic (attack, utility, racial and feat) powers aswell as class features,
2 for paragon powers and
3 for epic powers.

Recharge daily power: Once per day as a free action, you can choose to recharge a daily power of your choice by spending an action point. Immediately after you resolve an daily power, the power recharges at the end of your turn a couple of rounds later. To determine how many rounds later, roll 1d4 and add
2 for heroic (attack, utility, racial and feat) powers aswell as class features,
4 for paragon powers and
6 for epic powers.

(If the current encounter ends (if the power was used in an encounter), the power is restored after the next short rest.)

Thoughts?

Your write up is very like what I meant for the "deep resource" driven refreshes... I was thinking to make the encounter one in place of a second wind does that seem like too high a cost?

[Stalker0]

Originally Posted by ravenheart

I think this calls for a simpler feature:

Recharge encounter power: Once per encounter as a free action, you can choose to recharge an encounter power of your choice. Immediately after you resolve an encounter power, the power recharges at the end of your turn a couple of rounds later. To determine how many rounds later, roll 1d4 and add
1 for heroic (attack, utility, racial and feat) powers aswell as class features,
2 for paragon powers and
3 for epic powers.

Recharge daily power: Once per day as a free action, you can choose to recharge a daily power of your choice by spending an action point. Immediately after you resolve an daily power, the power recharges at the end of your turn a couple of rounds later. To determine how many rounds later, roll 1d4 and add
2 for heroic (attack, utility, racial and feat) powers aswell as class features,
4 for paragon powers and
6 for epic powers.

(If the current encounter ends (if the power was used in an encounter), the power is restored after the next short rest.)

Thoughts?

Nice, clean, and simple...I like it. You might add that each tier automatically subtracts 1 from the rounds (so paragon refresh paragon powers as fast as heroic refreshes heroic). Also the round counter might be a bit too high, a d3 might more better, but that's really flavored to taste.

[ravenheart]

Originally Posted by Garthanos

Your write up is very like what I meant for the "deep resource" driven refreshes... I was thinking to make the encounter one in place of a second wind does that seem like too high a cost?

I came up with this approach with long tedious fights in mind, where a recharged encounter/daily power really could help reduce the grind. Because of that I think the time it takes to recharge is penalty enough.

Originally Posted by Stalker0

Nice, clean, and simple...I like it. You might add that each tier automatically subtracts 1 from the rounds (so paragon refresh paragon powers as fast as heroic refreshes heroic). Also the round counter might be a bit too high, a d3 might more better, but that's really flavored to taste.

Thanks! I'm really trying to embrace simpler solutions with 4E, but 3.x still haunts me from time to time. All in good time I guess, but I'm glad it works out sometime!

On to your suggestion, I'm not quite sure I understand what you meant. Did you want me to use 1d4+1/2 regardless of the tier of the power? I specifically made the recharge time of paragon and epic powers slower so that it would preserve balance by preventing spamming high level encounter and daily powers. But maybe a static recharge time would be better?

and I choose d4 since it is the smallest dice not requiring the use of a greater dice to determine a lower number. But perhaps one could change it to:
Heroic: 1(2 for daily)+1d2
Paragon: 1(2 for daily)+1d3
Epic: 1(2 for daily)+1d4

[Garthanos]

A delay in between use seems like a reasonable limit in any event my only issue with it ... well I don't like tracking rounds and making the number of rounds random so I might need to look that up... well.

Tying deep resource reuse... to already defined resources surges/secondwinds/action points feels interesting it shows there is something you are trading it for... just saying you reuse ... after a delay doesn't.

I agree,in general a once in a while re-use of player characters restricted use abilities Is in my opinion a more vivid method of speeding combats lasting a little long than for instance halving monster hit points or similar solutions bandied about.

Simplifying the idea of roll based refresh even just applying it to attack powers still seems interesting one could get some sim mileage out of a critical roll on the first attack roll associated with an attack power means it isnt expended.

Combine that with having feats like subtle fighter and careful focus (for mages) to make that roll requirement less stringent than a critical.

Subtle Fighter | Careful Focus
The roll associated with your attack powers are considered 2 higher for purposes of determining whether you may reuse that power.

The trickster power would be adjusted to perhaps be getting the feat free and maybe with an additional +1.

[Stalker0]

Originally Posted by ravenheart

On to your suggestion, I'm not quite sure I understand what you meant. Did you want me to use 1d4+1/2 regardless of the tier of the power? I specifically made the recharge time of paragon and epic powers slower so that it would preserve balance by preventing spamming high level encounter and daily powers. But maybe a static recharge time would be better?

What I'm suggesting is that you keep your times, but increase the speed for paragon and epic character.

For example, Paragon characters subtract 1 round from the number of rounds they have to recharge.

Example: A heroic character wants to recharge a heroic power. That's d4+1. He rolls a 4, so 5 rounds. If a paragon character wanted to recharge the same power, he rolls d4+1 - 1 (because he's paragon). If he rolled a 4, that would be 4 rounds to recharge. With an epic characters, its d4+1-2 (because he's epic), so 3 rounds. Now its still slower for them to recharge paragon and epic powers, but they recharge everything a little quicker than your model.


Garthanos brings up a good point about round tracking, that's not really the 4e way. Might I suggest this instead? When you recharge, its a saving throw, with a bonus or penalty. So recharge a heroic power could be a saving throw with a -5 bonus or something.

Anyway this is off topic with the OP, so I would recommend putting this in another thread.

[Garthanos]

Originally Posted by Stalker0

Might I suggest this instead? When you recharge, its a saving throw, with a bonus or penalty. So recharge a heroic power could be a saving throw with a -5 bonus or something.

I was considering difficulties of non-attack powers being based on the level of the power... but having it based on Tier could allow those non-leveled powers granted by races, classes or feats.

Hey that saving throw mechanic is growing on me...here is a way for it to feel logical to me.

For powers which have an "effect" (because an effect implies the power is not dependent on the target of the power so even if it includes an attack its not central to the power) The save coulld be modeling physical or mental resilience.... appropriate to the power. Most martial activities would be fortitude most magical domain activities is a will save.

Reflex saves could be generalized to recover most any power that doesn't have an "effect" or an attack roll.

Powers without an effect but with an attack roll we use an analog to the Tricksters Control Power, adjust the success range by is it daily, encounter and Tier.

Hmmmm not sure if it holds up under a sim light but it seems to imply some interesting relationships.

The options do not seem mutually exclusive although the resillience save does make using a static cost for those deep resources unnecessary.

1) using a derivation of the tricksters control power (attack roll powers only).
2) using a static cost (like a second wind or action pt)
3) using a saving throw appropriate to the power.

[CapnZapp]

Doesn't characters (at Paragon and Epic levels) already get powers that allow Encounter and Daily recharges (and swaps)?