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Am I the only one who thinks a 0xp druid that has an at-will, minor action polymorph ability, which would be a paragon power (at least) for any other class, is a bit much?
Even 1st edition had it as what would be a 5th level daily power.
It's just a cosmetic effect, with the additional benefit of allowing half the druid's powers to be used and allowing the druid a 1/every other turn shift for free.
Honestly, ignoring the cool factor, it's a net gain of 0.
Wow, so it is just me? Well I'm rebuilding to Druid in my campaign to not get Wild Shape until 11th level and then it will probably be a standard action. It will be a lot less Doppleganger and more....um, Druid.
If anyone is interested, I'll post the changes here.
I believe Siberys answer you purely from the combat perspective, which is all too common among 4E players (because it's actively promoted by the game's publisher).
Out of combat, this power would let you sneak around hidden in a way that few people would question (certainly in a forest - less so in a city).
But the thing is that no powers are assumed to be usable outside of combat. (Except for rituals or when the text specifically overrides this)
That is, all the descriptive text about Druids preferring to stay in beast form is just fluff.
If you assume the Druid is human except for short intervals of time during combat, you'll find the ability to be balanced for a level 1 character.
Well, if you do that, keep in mind that half of the available druid powers will be useless for the first ten levels.
Also, in regards to only focusing on the combat aspect; Well, yeah. The RPing rules in D&D are so much more freeform that I usually figure one can ignore talking about balance in such situations.
Outside of combat, though, this is only OP if you let it be. At most it's a +2 bonus to a skill check (Yay DM's best friend!). If the druid wanted people to think they actually WERE an animal, I'd probably call for a bluff check. And they'd have to stay Medium, as per the power, so no "squirrel scouting".
Basically, you're hitting the Druid with the nerf-bat, and HARD. Not that that's not your prerogative - to each his own. But I just think that you could restrict the Out-of-combat shapeshifting ability without affecting the druid's in-combat capabilities. One solution would be to say that, until whatever you consider a reasonable level, wild-shaping is not a COMPLETE transformation, but only partial - kinda like that druid variant in the 3.5 PHBII.
But the thing is that no powers are assumed to be usable outside of combat. (Except for rituals or when the text specifically overrides this)
Do you have a page reference for this? I'd like to read up on it.
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I disagree completely on the nerf-bat. There is so much material to prop up the poor tree hugger with self image issues.
Druids with totems? Shaman -yes, barbarian - yes, druids - huh? What happened to mistletoe, silver sickles, groves. The entire player's handbook 2 only mentions "grove" once - for the WARDEN!?
A 2nd level druid is the perfect assassin, wild shape to a rat/mouse, infiltrate, plant poison, leave.
Maybe spread some plague too.
Ok, done ranting.
Last edited by StAlda; 29th March 2009 at 10:45 PM..
Am I the only one who thinks a 0xp druid that has an at-will, minor action polymorph ability, which would be a paragon power (at least) for any other class, is a bit much?
Even 1st edition had it as what would be a 5th level daily power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StAlda
I disagree completely on the nerf-bat. There is so much material to prop up the poor tree hugger with self image issues.
Druids with totems? Shaman -yes, barbarian - yes, druids - huh? What happened to mistletoe, silver sickles, groves. The entire player's handbook 2 only mentions "grove" once - for the WARDEN!?
A 2nd level druid is the perfect assassin, wild shape to a rat/mouse, infiltrate, plant poison, leave.
Maybe spread some plague too.
Ok, done ranting.
Firstly, it seems that the comments about 1st edition and mistletoe/silver sickles/groves seem to be a longing for 4th edition to more closely hew to what has been flavor text from the past editions. In this respect, I agree with the sentiment. I don't feel they needed to change as much in flavor and background to mesh with the new mechanics of the game.
Secondly, wild shape allows you to assume the form of a beast. more specifically, it allows you to assume a form that resembles a natural or fey beast of your size. It then provides examples of typical mammalian four-legged predators. Next, it gives the alternate flavor of assuming indistinct, shadowy features of animals in a shamanic mask style effect. Either choice is a matter of flavor because it states "You choose a specific form whenever you use wild shape, and that form has no effect on your ame
statistics or movement modes."
The Wild Shape power entry states in part:
"You choose a specific form whenever you use wild shape to change into beast form. The beast form is your size, resembles a natural beast or a fey beast, and normally doesn’t change your game statistics or movement modes."
So, 2nd level druids will have a slight problem. They will not be able to wild shape into a rat. Dire rat - yes (if they are medium size). Giant rat - yes (if they are small size). Rat rat - no. Smaller than small, so no dice. Still, a small dog might be overlooked. But they don't have access to the Thievery skill or the stealth skill, so you'll need to spend two feats or play eladrin and one feat to have access to the training in them.
The the 2nd level halfling/gnome druid will wild shape into giant rat or a small dog to avoid suspicion. Make skill checks for stealth (and possibly thievery) to gain access, and then wild shape back into a gnome/halfling to plant the poision (possibly requiring other skill checks). Finally, wild shape back into beast form and escape. All in all, sounds like a great skill challenge. I would love to see it in play with the rest of the party attempting another skill challenge/combat at the same time.
Lastly, sad rat example wouldn't allow plague as that would change game statistics by giving you a disease power for free. So that wouldn't work.
For the Mistletoe / etc.; Just say that's what your totem looks like. Done! Your druid now has Mistletoe as a power-focus!
As for skittering sneak; The power lasts until the end of the encounter (so about five minutes), You're STILL the size of a cat, you only gain a +5 bonus to stealth, AND you can't attack, pick up items, or manipulate objects. Hardly "The Perfect Assassin". Seems about right for a 2nd level daily power, though.
My point is, at heroic tier, there are 17 beast form powers (approx. 1/2 the powers for heroic tier). Those would be useless under your houserule until 11th level, and even then it will be of severely limited utility due to the action cost you'd be assigning it. Additionally, there are several powers (like skittering sneak) that are not themselves beast form powers, but which still interact with WS.
Basically, you'd be messing with the combat effectiveness of the class to bring its flavor in line with what you think it should be. I think you can bring the flavor into line without limiting the druid in combat so much, 's'all. Crunch and fluff are two separate entities in 4e; You can fiddle with one without touching the other.
Do you have a page reference for this? I'd like to read up on it.
I'll do my best.
Believe it or not, but this is 4E's rule on powers:
"Unless otherwise noted, a power is instantaneous and has no lasting effect."
--PHB, "Durations" section, page 278.
Hardly satisfying, is it? Saying Wild Shape lasts throughout the encounter (or until you use it again, of course) seems not only to be reasonable, but it also seems to be the intent of the designers (to have the power last, that is).
However, if you're looking for a rule saying it doesn't last all day, you won't find it. I'd go so far as to say you would make an unreasonable demand if you were to say "unless I see a rule telling me Wild Shape is limited to encounters I'll rule it works all day".
That is because 4E isn't about things outside of combat; it's all about the encounter. (Yes, this can be a disappointment for some D&D players.)
The best I can do is directing you towards the following, and noting Wild Shape isn't (a ritual):
"Rituals (see Chapter 10) can create effects that last for hours, days, or years."
--PHB, "Durations" section, page 278.
Really, that is all there is to it. If you choose to remain unconvinced, I'm afraid there isn't any more pages to turn to.
Instead I'd like you to do a little exercise: you show me where it says Wild Shape does work outside of combat! (Because that's really where the burden of proof should lie, considering the 4E design parameters)
Anyway, it's your game and you should feel free to do whatever if fun for your group. What you shouldn't do, however, is complain about how overpowered out-of-combat Druid Wild Shaping is if you choose to allow it...
Am I the only one who thinks a 0xp druid that has an at-will, minor action polymorph ability, which would be a paragon power (at least) for any other class, is a bit much?
Even 1st edition had it as what would be a 5th level daily power.
You must be joking. The basic Wild Shape power does absolutely nothing but let you shift one square when you leave it. The change to animal form is purely cosmetic. It doesn't change your stats. It doesn't give you senses, movement modes, underwater breathing, or anything else that animals naturally have. All Wild Shape does is let you use beast form keyword powers, while restricting you from using other powers. This is not an advantage, its a drawback! No other class has to "shift" to be able to access all of their powers. No other class has their powers segregated the way Druids do. And you'd think that being able to turn into an animal would at least be useful as a disguise, but the power doesn't even offer that option (powers do only what they say they do, and since the power doesn't say you can use it for disguise, as other powers like disguise self do, this means it can't be used for that purpose).
Wild Shape in 4th edition is a useless gimick coated in fluff. You have to take other powers or feats before it offers any advantage at all (and those advantages are modest at best). You can't even turn into a rat or bird and pick up small objects anymore.
Instead I'd like you to do a little exercise: you show me where it says Wild Shape does work outside of combat! (Because that's really where the burden of proof should lie, considering the 4E design parameters)
Ok then...
The very first line of the Wild Shape description. ("You change from your humanoid form to beast form or vice versa.")
No duration is noted so it is instantaneous, however the inferance of that is that the druid remains in the shifted form until they use wild shape again to change. Before anyone complains about inferring rather than proving, no duration is noted for healing word or fireball, we must infer through common sense that the hp restored or damage taken lasts beyond either 'Instantaneous' or the duration of the combat.
Regarding the use of powers outside combat: "If you use a power outside combat, it lasts for 5 minutes unless otherwise noted. Durations are discussed in more detail on page 278." - PHB, pg.58, paragraph 5 (Duration).
__________________ -This is all IMHO, of course
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That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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Kweezil, I agree the game becomes more fun if powers are useful out of combat to as a large degree as is possible.
But thinking you can use an at-will power every five minutes all day long is what lead the OP into trouble here. So don't go there.
The other option is to go down the route advocated by Falling Icicle. As you can imagine, this is the more depressing and boring route.
But no matter how you look at it, the claim Druids can turn into animals for hours on end (with the implication this makes them blend in - and thus become over-powered) is simply unsupportable - there is nothing to show this was the intent of the designers.
I don't think this issue merits errata. Instead choose your poison; either Wild Shape lasts through encounters and nothing more, or it is really useless (where anyone can see it's a human dressed up like an Elk or whatever, turning Druids into people that need mental care)
As I said, 4E is about encounters, so if you won't change your mind based on what I've written so far, I can't help you...
Of course, as long as your group do not find effective long-duration Wild Shape to be overpowering, then there is no problem. But if you do find this to be a balance issue, then my only advice is simply to not house-rule it in.
Thing is, this is not a Big DealTM even if it is long-duration, use-as-much-as-you-like. At most, it's a +2 circumstance bonus to skill checks - no more. You can't seemlessly blend in as an animal and do scouting, 'cause someone will notice that that deer is paying a little too close attention. It requires skill checks and creativity to pull that sort of thing off.
As to how long wild shape lasts, it's a toggle. When you first use wild shape, you enter the beast-form state, and stay there until you use wild shape again. It's pretty clear that that's how it works. Even if it only lasts five minutes, wild shape is at-will and a minor action - nothing RAW would prevent the druid from simply re-using the power. There really isn't a poison to choose.
Wild Shape lasts until you use it again. It says that it can only be used once per round. Resuming your normal form requires you to use Wild Shape again in the same round if you assume that Wild Shape has an instant or one round duration. Hence, it is obviously a toggle. Just because every single rule isn't spelled out in big, bold letters doesn't mean they don't exist, just as we can infer that gravity is a default assumption from the falling rules.
It also makes you look like the animal whose form you choose, rather than an obvious "druid in sheep's clothing". If you don't believe that, take a look at the Doppelganger's Change Shape ability on pg 276 of the MM. Either this ability does absolutely nothing (which makes one question why the designers bothered to write it up in the first place) or it is a tool which facilitates activities that might otherwise be difficult or impossible (such as a gnome attempting to impersonate an orc chieftain).
If a doppelganger assassinates your buddy, Rem the Thief, and then attempts to infiltrate the party, the PCs don't magically know that he's a doppelganger. He had better do a damn fine job of acting the part (via Bluff) though or else they'll realize that something is very wrong with Rem.
Similarly, a druid in Wild Shape needs to act the part if he's to use it to his advantage. Under the right circumstances, as others have suggested, a +2 may be in order. If the druid fails to blend in however, people are going to take notice that this animal is behaving strangely. They may not know this animal to be the druid per se, but they can assume that it's been magicked in some way, which means the jig is up and the druid will probably need to make a hasty escape.
Magic is a default assumption of the D&D universe. Even people who don't interact with it on a day to day basis are going to grow suspicious if they realize that the dog across the street is ignoring the children trying to play with it and has instead been staring at them for the past minute. The default laws of their universe are acknowledged to be far less defined than those of our modern one.
While it's your game, I think it would be excessive to delay Wild Shape until level 11. While the class would still be playable, Wild Shape is the primary dynamic feature that serves to differentiate druids from invokers and wizards. It probably wouldn't break the class, but I think it would likely make it a little flat.
While I haven't read all of these posts I'd have to agree that a druid unable to shape shift at level one in 4e significantly hinders them. Unless of course you want to play the spell casting type. What 4e does is to make a character choose between focusing on making the most of his shape shift ability or of his spell casting ability. The mechanics in 4e is quite combat focused and as someone said the out-of-combat is more free form. Mechanically shape shifting doesnt allow the druid to turn into a mouse, and as such no epic lvl 2 druid assissins. Instead of completely rewritting the class why don't you focus on making it work for you. IE gain small/large forms at lvl 11 or perhaps via a feat.
In older editions the shapeshift introduced higher statistics. What the new edition does is add low level, less effective shapeshifting (unless your rules loose). I know in our 3.5 campaign we had a druid that would at 6th lvl mind you, change into an owl and scout ahead and/or fly above the battlefield utilixing the natural spell feat to shoot down splinter bolts at everything and then turning into a bear for some melee action with bear-spell-casting. THAT was an OP druid. I much prefer a druid that can only use specific attacks in combat while in form and stepping up as DM to say NO SECRET SQUIRREL SPIES.
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Currently DMing:
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Thing is, this is not a Big DealTM even if it is long-duration, use-as-much-as-you-like. At most, it's a +2 circumstance bonus to skill checks - no more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaelialae
Similarly, a druid in Wild Shape needs to act the part if he's to use it to his advantage. Under the right circumstances, as others have suggested, a +2 may be in order. If the druid fails to blend in however, people are going to take notice that this animal is behaving strangely. They may not know this animal to be the druid per se, but they can assume that it's been magicked in some way, which means the jig is up and the druid will probably need to make a hasty escape.
I think these two quotes highlight the problem of discussing the issue at all.
For some people, it's obvious that if you can turn yourself into a deer, you will go pretty much unnoticed in natural surroundings. (We're taking much more than a +2 bonus here, because the Goblin guard might stare right at the deer and still not get it) For these people, limiting Wild Shape to encounters or 5 minute intervals is the best solution.
For other people (like the ones above) nerfing Wild Shape considerably (relative to the the opposing point of view) isn't a problem. In this case, Wild Shape can go without a duration, because it's nearly worthless.
The problem becomes when you don't accept that there are people who feel your solution is worse than the original problem.
For some people, making a Wild Shaped Druid trigger skill checks (Perception, Insight, etc) is an unbearable and massive nerf. For others, limiting powers to only work within the encounter framework is equally unacceptable.
It's only when you assume one thing and still use th
e power in the way the other group might use it there becomes a problem.
So again, if you and your group doesn't have a problem with either the functionality or the duration of Wild Shape then everything's fine, and no restrictions are necessary.
But please don't complain Druids are overpowered. It's equally probably it's just you who are mixing assumptions of your own with the ones laid down by the game:
If you prefer "fool-proof" shapeshifting, don't allow it out of encounters.
If you prefer powers aren't limited by encounters, make shapeshifting "just another power" with no implied abilities to confound.
And if you allow both, don't complain it makes Druids powerful!
For some people, it's obvious that if you can turn yourself into a deer, you will go pretty much unnoticed in natural surroundings. (We're taking much more than a +2 bonus here, because the Goblin guard might stare right at the deer and still not get it) For these people, limiting Wild Shape to encounters or 5 minute intervals is the best solution.
I would suggest in the above case to have Wild Shape grant a man-beast form. At will Wild Shape that can be used outside of combat with indefinite duration, but good luck escaping the notice of the goblin guard when you resemble a werestag.
Quote:
For other people (like the ones above) nerfing Wild Shape considerably (relative to the the opposing point of view) isn't a problem. In this case, Wild Shape can go without a duration, because it's nearly worthless.
Nearly worthless? Wild Shape in this case is an instant disguise! I doubt many DMs would allow a normally dressed halfling rogue to Bluff people into seeing him as a dog (I wouldn't). Wild Shape plus a successful Bluff check equals "just a harmless old hound". It simply isn't an automatic "I win" button for scouting encounters and the like. "Not an automatic I win" does not translate to "worthless" as far as I'm concerned.
Quote:
The problem becomes when you don't accept that there are people who feel your solution is worse than the original problem.
For some people, making a Wild Shaped Druid trigger skill checks (Perception, Insight, etc) is an unbearable and massive nerf. For others, limiting powers to only work within the encounter framework is equally unacceptable.
It's only when you assume one thing and still use the power in the way the other group might use it there becomes a problem.
So again, if you and your group doesn't have a problem with either the functionality or the duration of Wild Shape then everything's fine, and no restrictions are necessary.
But please don't complain Druids are overpowered. It's equally probably it's just you who are mixing assumptions of your own with the ones laid down by the game:
If you prefer "fool-proof" shapeshifting, don't allow it out of encounters.
If you prefer powers aren't limited by encounters, make shapeshifting "just another power" with no implied abilities to confound.
And if you allow both, don't complain it makes Druids powerful!
IMO, it should be approached like any potential houserule.
1) Identify the core problem. Be specific in identifying your concerns.
2) Try to use the least invasive solution to fix the problem(s). A "fix" that breaks more than it fixes is not a good fix. Neither is one that makes whatever you are trying to fix unappealing or uninteresting.
Nearly worthless? Wild Shape in this case is an instant disguise! I doubt many DMs would allow a normally dressed halfling rogue to Bluff people into seeing him as a dog (I wouldn't). Wild Shape plus a successful Bluff check equals "just a harmless old hound". It simply isn't an automatic "I win" button for scouting encounters and the like. "Not an automatic I win" does not translate to "worthless" as far as I'm concerned.
I was probably unclear.
When I said "worthless" I mean from the point of view of the camp that believes Wild Shape turns you completely into an animal.
You can probably agree having to Bluff the Goblin into believing you're "just a harmless old hound" is worthless comparing to simply becoming a harmless old hound...?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaelialae
IMO, it should be approached like any potential houserule.
Well, you're still not seeing my point.
My point is that there are this other camp of people who believe their view of Wild Shape isn't a houserule but a completely natural interpretation of the rules.
And in the same way you are unquestionlingly talking about "becoming the old dog" as a house-rule, they are equally shocked you could even suggest you only become someone that could Bluff others into believing you're a dog, when to them, you become the dog.
Not saying either camp is right.
What I am saying is there are two camps, and that the inability of each to even see that there is another camp is what's causing the confusion on the forums over questions like "why is the Druid so overpowered?" and "how can people even think the Druid to be overpowered?"
No, you were clear. I think it was actually myself who was not as clear as I could have been. I am/was aware that you aren't/weren't associating yourself with a "camp", and a lot of my previous post (as well as this one) wasn't directed at you specifically, but rather at the views you mentioned.
Quote:
When I said "worthless" I mean from the point of view of the camp that believes Wild Shape turns you completely into an animal.
You can probably agree having to Bluff the Goblin into believing you're "just a harmless old hound" is worthless comparing to simply becoming a harmless old hound...?
Actually, I completely disagree. Don't get me wrong, I've met players like this before.
Them- "Jeez, this RPG doesn't automatically kill the enemy? What a piece of junk!"
Me- "Ummm... it does five times the damage of the best gun, as an aoe no less... how the heck do you conclude it's a piece of junk?"
Them- "Well in the real world if you get hit with a rocket propelled grenade you're dead..."
Me- "You're aware that this is a game, right?"
I just can't fathom the thought process that if something isn't auto-win then it's worthless. I can understand the viewpoint that it isn't as good as an auto-win, but worthless? Really? I guess I just can't see how having an insta-disguise up your sleeve anytime you need it can be construed by anyone as worthless.
Honestly, I can understand where the other camp is coming from because we used to play that way in 3.x. 4e, however, is a very different game and as we've seen time and time again on these forums, if you can't adapt your assumptions to the new dynamic then you are not going to get on well with the new edition. That isn't to say that people who like the dynamic of 3.x are badwrongfun or any such thing. It is, however, different.
Quote:
Well, you're still not seeing my point.
My point is that there are this other camp of people who believe their view of Wild Shape isn't a houserule but a completely natural interpretation of the rules.
And in the same way you are unquestionlingly talking about "becoming the old dog" as a house-rule, they are equally shocked you could even suggest you only become someone that could Bluff others into believing you're a dog, when to them, you become the dog.
Not saying either camp is right.
What I am saying is there are two camps, and that the inability of each to even see that there is another camp is what's causing the confusion on the forums over questions like "why is the Druid so overpowered?" and "how can people even think the Druid to be overpowered?"
Cheers!
Believe it or not, I do understand that. However, the OP was attempting to house rule a fix to Wild Shape by delaying it's acquistion until 11th level.
Meaning no offense to the OP, but I consider that a bad fix because it removes what makes the druid a dynamic class from levels 1-10 (which IMO will make the class boring to play for those levels). Come 11th level the druid gains Wild Shape and, assuming Wild Shape was to be this druid's intended focus, now has to begin the tedious task of retraining the last 10 levels of powers. Essentially, this druid will be epic level before he can play the class according to his original character concept. I have to ask how that could be beneficial to the game?
"Auto-win" Wild Shape is still going to be a problem come level 11 because 4e has pretty much killed the "auto-win" concept, and bringing it back in this case is not going to help the game's balance any (does the druid only marginalizing the Rogue's scouting role after 10th level makes it so much better?).
I still hold that this "camp" is better served by making Wild Shape appear lycanthropic in nature. It doesn't mess with the class balance at all, but eliminates the abuse of "auto-win" Wild Shape scouting and the like.
Limiting it to combat is technically possible, but it's kind of a weird mechanic (why is Wild Shape only usable in combat?) and it eliminates some of the interesting non-combat utility powers (Skittering Sneak).
I don't see how limiting Wild Shape to a 5 minute duration would help at all. It's an at-will power. What's to keep a druid from hiding before he reaches the 5 minute mark, then shifting out and shifting back in? Sure it's a bit cheesy, but what do you expect if you grant a power with unlimited uses that lasts 5 minutes? All you've done is replaced a periodic Bluff check to "avoid suspicion" with a periodic Stealth check to "reapply auto-win cheese".
Hence, why I responded with the house rule creation guidelines as I did. I saw your point. The other camp can run their Wild Shape however they want; it's their game. However, I felt it important to point out that the OP's proposed house rule would not fix the perceived problem; it would only delay it and creates additional problems as well.
Last edited by Fanaelialae; 2nd April 2009 at 05:46 PM..
(Because that's really where the burden of proof should lie, considering the 4E design parameters)
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