Class Martial Controller: Multiclass Only

[chronoplasm]

I've made a lot of attempts in the past to create my own Martial Controller class... but to no avail.
I just can't find enough design space to build on.
Here's an idea thoughl... What if the martial controller class was not a complete class in itself, but something that you could only multiclass into like with Spellscarred?
If we can't obtain the goal, then maybe move the goal-line, right?

OK, so let's call this guy... Super Soldier.
*edit*

Big Guy [MULTICLASS SUPER SOLDIER]
Prerequisite: Any martial
Benefit: Your reach is increased by 1.
If you are a small creature, you can wield two-handed weapons and versatile weapons as though you were not small.
Whenever you spend an action point, each enemy within your reach takes a -1 penalty to the defense of your choice until the end of your next turn.

Swarmlike [MULTICLASS SUPER SOLDIER]
Prerequisite: Any martial
Benefit: You have Resist 10 to melee and ranged attacks.
You have Vulnerable 10 to close and area attacks.
You can make a basic melee attack as a free action against each enemy that begins its turn within your reach.


Your thoughts?

[chronoplasm]

Bumrush- Super Soldier Attack ?
Encounter. Martial, Weapon, Fear
Standard-Action
Special: You may use this power instead of a basic melee attack when charging.
Close blast 3
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. Push the target 1 + Charisma modifier squares. You may shift into the unoccupied square.

[Quickleaf]

Originally Posted by chronoplasm

I've made a lot of attempts in the past to create my own Martial Controller class... but to no avail.
I just can't find enough design space to build on.

I've seen a lot of people struggle with designing a martial controller. I think two factors have been working against such attempts:
(1) The role (controller) was decided before the concept. That kind of thinking artificially restricts design space, IMO.
(2) Folks have been setting higher standards for power design than WotC itself. For example, the cleric's wound & heal powers -- most attempts at creating a martial controller seem to go through rigorous self & peer criticism, and such powers are given the axe right away.

Here's an idea thoughl... What if the martial controller class was not a complete class in itself, but something that you could only multiclass into like with Spellscarred?

"Super Soldier" is just terrible. What's the concept you have and maybe we can help with a different name?

Swarmlike is way over-powered, but I see you're thinking of an aura like effect which dissuades enemies and mops up mooks, right? That's very controller-y.

[chronoplasm]

I guess what I'm thinking of is some sort of character who has been physically enhanced through artificial means. Like Captain America, or Wolverine!
...Still very much martial-powered, but enhanced biology makes the character capable of pulling off incredible exploits that are normally physically impossible.

[Starfox]

Did you check out earlier posts on martial controllers? I like the idea, and I think we can get there trough collaboration and peer review.

Inquisitive

Martial Controller (4E - Hastur)

[chronoplasm]

I've been following them for a while, but I'm starting to think now that the gadgeteer model of martial controllers might step on the Artificer's toes a bit too much.

I think the martial controller should simply focus on whirlwind attacks. It's narrow, but thats why I'm going with multiclass-only rather than a full class.
I'm also thinking of making it something kinda setting-specific like Spellscarred or Dragonmarked.

Flavor:
The character's body is purposefully augmented by artificial means, but not in any supernatural kind of way.
The character is insane.

Name Ideas:
Fleshwarped
Juiced
Prototype
Steampowered
Super Sentai

OK, so here's a thought;
The augmentation is kind of like Guyver.
When maddened, the character bulks up, and armor and weaponry retracts from hir skin. Then the character just goes ape and starts attacking everything in reach.

Hmmm...

[MULTICLASS NAME]
Prerequisite: Martial
Benefit:
When you are first bloodied during an encounter, you may switch to your 'other form' until the end of the encounter.
Whenever a creature starts its turn adjacent to you, and you are in your other form, you must make a basic melee attack against that creature as a free action.

*edit*
Some other stuff.

Armor Burst-
Daily. Martial, Weapon
Requirements: Spend a healing surge. Use only if bloodied.
Minor-Action
Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst.
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage and the target is dazed (save ends).
Effect: You gain a +2 bonus to AC until the end of encounter.

Secret of the Feywild [MULTICLASS NAME]
Prerequisite: NAME, Fey Origin
Benefit: You may replace a daily power you know with a daily power of the same level or lower from the NAME list.
While in your 'other form', adjacent creatures take a -1 penalty to Will.

[Starfox]

Shouldn't a creature whose body has been warped my magic and that gains powers from this have a magical power origin? Martial is the origin for skilled and trained characters.

[chronoplasm]

I'm tired of having to screw around with unique flavor.

Look: I just want to play as a character who runs into a crowd of minions and stabs them all in the eye without having to bother with marking or quarries or daggers or anything.
I just want to spin around and chop everything around me in half.
That's what I want in a martial controller.

How about this:
The martial controller is a warrior who goes insane and flips out and he doesn't use magic or anything; he just chops.

Nihilistic Glee- Slasher Attack
Encounter. Martial, Fear, Weapon, Rattling
Standard-Action
Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in burst.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. If there is at least one ally in burst, the target is dazed (save ends).

[Starfox]

Seems fine, as long as you can:

A) Balance it
B) Survive

But are you sure that is a controller? What you want sounds pretty close to an avenger, barbarian or double-weapon ranger. Or a melee version of the Sorcerer - which is still a striker. What do you want that is different from what they got? Controllers are usually more about tactics and... control.

[chronoplasm]

You're right. That's too strikery.

I've been trying to figure out what a controller is...
...and I've gotten this bit of insight from The Forge.

Originally Posted by Vulpinoid

Even if the game did boil down to simply "taking an opponents points and preventing someone from taking your points", I can instantly see the value in more than just two roles.
With a single pool of points for each side to play with...
(I've added in parentheses the role type that I believe 4e is trying to make synonymous with this function, as far as I understand things...)

You get:

• 
  [li]The character who's primary objective is to take away someone's points. (Striker)[/li]
  [li]The character who restores your points when they get lost. (Leader)[/li]
  [li]The character who increases someone's potential to steal points. (Controller)[/li]
  [li]The character who reduces someone's potential to steal points. (Defender)[/li]

Without the second two options you get a very bland game, but with them a range of basic strategic options manifest.
And that's only if each side shares a single communal pool.

If each character on each side had a pool to worry about you could also include:

• 
  [li]The character who transfers points to where they are most needed. (Probably a sub-role of Leader or Defender)[/li]
  [li]The character who identifies the weakest/strongest characters on a given side. (Probably a subrole of Striker or Controller)[/li]
  [li]The character who hides the weakest/strongest characters on a given side. (Probably a sub-role of Defender or Controller)[/li]
  [li](You could come up with 6 different combinations of the base roles and work out a subrole that both could cover adequately)[/li]

Once you throw in two basic pools of points for each character (Hit Points/Willpower, Hit Points/Magic Points, Force/Chi, Glory/Honour, etc...) you instantly get a range of character archetypes that can shift points between the pools in addition to the shifting points between characters.
But this is all in reference to 4e D&D, and it seems that the current incarnation has only one pool to worry about. Hit Points.
I generally agree with Whiteknife's final line, and that's one of the reasons why I try to ensure that there is plenty of colour to mirror within the narrative the effects that are playing out within the dice mechanisms. I also try to ensure that when I design games there are tactical and narrative benefits from working strategically with other players (or against them), rather than just going head to head.
Just some thoughts...
V

I think I've got it!

The way I see it, Controllers should feature auras as their primary mechanic, and these auras should have effects that make the enemies easier to hit and damage.

Imposing Presence
Aura 2.
Enemies within your aura take a -1 penalty to Foritude, Reflex, and Will.
Increase this aura to 3 at 11th level and 4 at 21st level.

The martial controller should run into a crowd of mooks, but the mooks should run away because they don't want to stay within reach!

[chronoplasm]

OK, so here's what I'm thinking now.

Impaler
You are a master of psychological warfare and shock & awe tactics. It's not enough to simply defeat your enemies; you must massacre them to send a message to others.
You can project your voice to sound imposing and godlike. You are surrounded by an imposing presence that enfeebles enemies.

*edit*

Tenterhook Impaler Attack
Encounter. Martial, Weapon, Fear
Standard-Action
Melee Weapon
Target: One creature.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage. Each creature adjacent to the target can't shift until the end of your next turn.

[chronoplasm]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

INSPIRATION

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Class:
Mnemonic
You have memorized every position in battle and committed it to muscle memory. You are able to statistically predict the location of each enemy.
You are a living computer, cold and emotionless, specialized for plotting ballistics.

Sphere of Possibility
You have an aura 2. Increase this aura to 3 at 11th level and 4 at 21st level.
Whenever an enemy starts its turn within your aura, you may make a basic melee or basic ranged attack against it as a free action with a -2 penalty to attack.

...So yes, you do want to run into the middle of a group of enemies, but then the group of enemies is gonna wanna get the fug out of your aura!

Martial Controller Form Reply, ver. 2.1:
You have proposed a Martial Controller which is based on the following concept(s):
1. [ ] Trap-Setter
2. [ ] Grenade Tosser
3. [ ] Exotic Weapon Master
4. [X] Trick-Shot Master
5. [ ] Grappler / Tripper / Brawler
6. [X] Melee Multiattacker
7. [ ] Faster-than-Human Movement
8. [] Non-Magical Emotional Manipulation
9. [ ] Minion Master
Your idea does not provide a viable replacement for a Wizard as the party's Controller for the following reasons:
1. [ ] Powers require too much set up time to use in a newly entered area.
2. [ ] Powers rely on expendable (and potentially expensive) items that can run out.
3. [ ] Powers rely on items (or moves) that can be used by anyone in the manner described, even a child.
4. [ ] Powers rely on equipment which cannot be used in extremely common adventuring environments.
5. [ ] Powers rely on severe suspension of disbelief about monster / NPC behavior.
6. [ ] Concept is a one-trick wonder that does not lend itself to 30 levels of powers.
7. [ ] Concept, in the abstract, belongs better in one of the other three roles.
8. [ ] Concept's specific core mechanics are better associated with another role.
9. [ ] Concept relies on a core mechanic that, fundamentally, is not battlefield control.
10. [ ] Concept does not effectively provide battlefield control against multiple opponents.
11. [ ] Concept cannot control enemies before they reach the party.
12. [ ] Concept may be required to put itself in harm's way too much, leading either to quick death or to stepping on the Defender's toes.
Additionally, your concept has the following stylistic issues:
1. [ ] Powers are prone to absurd, game-breaking results.
2. [ ] Powers violate physics and common sense (even at Heroic tier).
3. [ ] Powers rely on extremely specific gear and constrain flexibility in equipping the character.
4. [ ] Powers rely on items that are magical in origin, diluting the Martial flavor.
5. [ ] Concept requires a technology level that makes it unsuited for many games.
6. [ ] Concept is "gimmicky" in execution and is too specific to offer versatility in PC creation.
7. [ ] Reliance on minions may make the class take up an unfair amount of time at the table by making it a "party of one."

Is there anything on this list you guys would check off?