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I'm thinking about changing the way "Identify Magic Item" works in 4E because I don't really like it. I would like to create a ritual to do that, and I'm looking for suggestions (or a link to an already existing ritual if anybody has done it).
My intention is to create a ritual that works something like how the "Identify" spell worked in Baldur's Gate, or in 3rd edition. I just started thinking about this, so I don't have much in mind. Here's a couple of things I would like for this ritual (let's call it "Identify Magic Item" to keep it simple):
-Level: It HAS to be level 1 (classes that can use rituals as a class feature will have this ritual for free at the begining).
-Category: Divination
-Time: not really relevant for now... maybe 10-15 minutes? what do you think?
-Duration: Instantaneous (you cast it, and you identify 1 magic item).
-Component Type: the component type relates to the skill used to perform the ritual, which at this point I haven't decided yet.. I think it will probably be Arcana (don't know if Religion should be used to, but i'll talk about this a little more later), so the type would be Alchemical Reagents.
-Component Cost:something like 25-50 gp??
-Market Price:the maket price will have to be determined once I have the component cost, but I was thinking something like "component cost+50gp"
-Key Skill: if my intention is to create something similar to the "Identify" spell, then it would have to be "Arcana (no check)". But I was thinking that religion could work to (maybe some sort of "revelation" the character achieves through the use of the religion skill... or something like that). All in all, if you would identify a single magic item (entirely) per use of the ritual, I think there's not going to be checks involved (so no DCs), so the skill shouldn't be SO relevant (maybe just having the skill as a trained skill could be enough for being able to use the ritual).
-Effect: for the Effect entry I could just use the description of the Identify spell
·Baldur's Gate: "The chance of identifying the item is 100%. The spell identifies the item's name, what it does, and if it is cursed".
·D&D 3rd ed.: "The spell determines all magic properties of a single magic item, including how to activate those functions (if appropriate), and how many charges are left (if any)."
I think the description of the 3rd ed. spell works better (though I would change the last part about the charges to something related to how many times you can use a power that the item, or when it recharges)
And, as it says in the PHB for Identifying Magic Items: "Some magic items might be a bit harder to identify, such as cursed or nonstandard items, or powerful magical artifacts. Your DM might ask for an Arcana check to determine their properties, or you might even need to go on a special quest to find a ritual to identify or to unlock the powers of a unique item." (so I'm still not sure if the ritual should identify when an item is cursed or not).
That's all I have in mind for now, please give me your opinions and suggestions.
Identify is a first level ritual that takes an hour to cast. Items cannot be auto-identified via resting. Any PC that takes the Ritual feat can gain the Identify ritual. The cost is 5% of the worth of the item in Residuum. If the caster does not have enough Residuum to cast the spell, the percentage of Residuum missing is the percentage chance that the ritual fails. The Residuum is automatically used up out of the caster’s store of it. The caster does not need to know ahead of time how much Residuum is required. Identify is used to identify a single potion with no Residuum. This still takes an hour per item.
We didn't do the level of detail of the cost of the ritual since one of our PCs took it at first level.
This has worked reasonably well for our group.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
Free identification was a brilliant idea in 4e. In 3.5 we spent half our time trying to find 100gp pearls to identify all our crap, most of which we didn't need. Are you sure messing with this will make the game more fun for your players?
Free identification is a crap idea, because it doesn't contain the all-important "unless the DM says otherwise" clause.
In other words, I agree there is no need for obstacles to identifying general crap loot.
But as written, a player can shove the PHB in the DMs face, demanding to know all the powers of the Mysterious Plot Item of Doom. And if the DM isn't strong enough to simply override the rules, that is a loss for the game.
Also, this power can be used to locate treasure (and monsters wielding magical weaponry) through doors and walls, which is simply absurd.
So I understand your elation. The idea was good, but the rule is horribly sloppy.
You could probably try and tie as many elements of the identification ritual into the item level, then have a floating bonus/penalty to these elements to cover special circumstances such as artifacts etc.
Maybe something like.........
Casting Time
1 minute per level of item.
- for each level the item is above the caster level add 5 minutes to the casting time.
- Double casting time for an artifact.
- Halve the casting time if the caster has access to a magical laboratory
example: A
Level 3 caster is trying to identify a level 5 item in the field
5 minutes (item level) + 10 minutes (item is 2 levels higher than caster)
= 15 minutes
B
Level 3 caster is trying to identify a level 7 artifact in his laboratory
7 minutes (item level) + 20 minutes (item 4 levels higher than caster) + 27 minutes (doubled for artifact) -27 (halved for laboratory)
= 27 minutes
Component Cost
10 gp per level of item
- double cost for artifact
- halve cost if the caster has access to a magical laboratory
example: A
Level 5 item in the field
50 gp (item level)
B
Level 7 artifact in laboratory
70 gp (item level) + 70 gp (doubled for artifact) - 70 gp (halved for laboratory)
Key Skill
Caster must have either arcane or religion skill
Free identification is a crap idea, because it doesn't contain the all-important "unless the DM says otherwise" clause.
Actually, it does contain that clause. The second paragraph under the heading 'Identifying Magic Items' on page 223 of the PHB states:
"Some magic items might be a bit harder to identify, such as cursed or nonstandard items, or powerful magical artifacts. Your DM might ask for an Arcana check to determine their properties, or you might even need to go on a special quest to find a ritual to identify or to unlock the powers of a unique item."
Free identification was a brilliant idea in 4e. In 3.5 we spent half our time trying to find 100gp pearls to identify all our crap, most of which we didn't need. Are you sure messing with this will make the game more fun for your players?
I'm actually trying to create this ritual because some players (and me) complained they don't like how it works in 4e, and I realized that incorporating something like an Identify ritual could really give their characters a more "logic" feeling on how an item works (rather than "In the course of handling the item for a few minutes, you discover what the item is and what it does" which makes sense for a sword, but makes NO sense for other types of items)
I agree that in 3.5 the identification process was a little dull (not only the cost was high for a low level character, but the spell used a spell slot which was annoying). To solve both those problems I think that if it is a ritual it won't bother any PC (they can use it whenever they want... if fact identifying magic items as it is now only works during short rests, so that won't change much if it's a ritual), and to keep it affordable I could relate the price to a percentage of the item (as some of you guys suggested) so it would be a reasonable price for all levels (instead of the 25-50 gp I said in the beggining which would just bother a high level character for the inconvenience)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarinsDad
Our group uses the following:
Identify is a first level ritual that takes an hour to cast. Items cannot be auto-identified via resting. Any PC that takes the Ritual feat can gain the Identify ritual. The cost is 5% of the worth of the item in Residuum. If the caster does not have enough Residuum to cast the spell, the percentage of Residuum missing is the percentage chance that the ritual fails. The Residuum is automatically used up out of the caster’s store of it. The caster does not need to know ahead of time how much Residuum is required. Identify is used to identify a single potion with no Residuum. This still takes an hour per item.
This helps A LOT, really, thanks. That's kind of what I had in mind. I like the cost percentage (5% sound like a reasonable cost for all levels) but I don't think I'll use Residuum as the component. It does sound better, but I want to keep Residuum as a rare thing, and identifying will be something very common.
Mesh Hong:
I like the idea of taking more time to identify artifacts, but the casting time isn't something that bothers me much, since rituals tend to be used in "character's free time" (a.k.a. short rests). Thanks for the ideas though.
Actually, it does contain that clause. The second paragraph under the heading 'Identifying Magic Items' on page 223 of the PHB states:
"Some magic items might be a bit harder to identify, such as cursed or nonstandard items, or powerful magical artifacts. Your DM might ask for an Arcana check to determine their properties, or you might even need to go on a special quest to find a ritual to identify or to unlock the powers of a unique item."
Yup and when the DM does that, the players say "an arcana check, hey guys, this might be cursed".
It's a terrible rule. It's a gamist rule.
Hey guys, we are playing a game, so we get to know everything. Bah. That's how computer games work.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
Yup and when the DM does that, the players say "an arcana check, hey guys, this might be cursed".
It's a terrible rule. It's a gamist rule.
Hey guys, we are playing a game, so we get to know everything. Bah. That's how computer games work.
For me it seems quite reasonable for "every item" to require an arcana check and/or perception check, perception based checks only give part of the picture but can tell you some basic information the warrior can tell his blade is very nicely balanced and seeks the gaps in enemy armor or the edge seems far better than standard steel etc. but not that saying beolchek causes it to do a flame blast once a day, arcana might give the latter if beolcheck is written on the blade in a magical language... if not then dig out a ritual.
I ask for perception checks even when there is nothing to find... too.
Is the above really a great divergence from rules as written?
Yup and when the DM does that, the players say "an arcana check, hey guys, this might be cursed".
Or it might be really powerful or just wierd...gee that tells a alot.
As the DM on my world I can choose just about everything on my world to be "non-standard" if it pleases me..
sheesh, I knew DM's in 1e that just described things as a +4 sword of sharpness way back when.... oh man
they must have been playing too many video games where you know
what all the gadgets are... I forgot there really werent an rpg videogames.
Personally I always ask for an arcana check to identify magic items, usually I am looking for the old "anything but a 1". Sometimes if it is a plot related item I will have another arbitary number in mind.
If anything I am a bit light on the amount of magical kit I hand out in game, so if I made it difficult for my party to identify what they did get I would be adding insult to injury
sheesh, I knew DM's in 1e that just described things as a +4 sword of sharpness way back when.... oh man
they must have been playing too many video games where you know
what all the gadgets are... I forgot there really werent an rpg videogames.
Just because one DM decided to do something different does not necessarily make it a good idea. I also find it amazing the amount of detail people can remember from 2+ decades ago from a game when they take an opposing POV.
__________________ The first sign of a broken rule is when someone suggests that the way to stop it is by readying an action.
Really, don't make it too complicated. I don't think a mini-game is required for that.
Identify
Casting Time: 1 Minute
Duration: Instantenous
Component Cost: 25 gp.
Market Price: 50 gp
Key Skill: Arcana
Effect:
You identify one object.
If you cast this on a non-magical object you know what it is and what its general purpose is. (So if it was an unusually formed key made from stone, you knew it is a key, though you wouldn't know who created it or which door it was made for.) If you had just a piece of an item you would know what the original item was. (For example, if you touched the remains of a wall, you might know whether it was originally part of a temple or a fortress wall.)
If you cast this spell on a magical item, you need to make a Arcana Check DC 10 + 1/2 item level. If you succeed, you identify all its magical properties.
If the item is cursed, an artifact or intelligent, the DC is 20 + 1/2 level to identify this property.
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All of these problems with free identification can be mitigated by a DM who's not actually ten house cats standing on top of each other and wearing a trench coat.
Just because one DM decided to do something different does not necessarily make it a good idea. I also find it amazing the amount of detail people can remember from 2+ decades ago from a game when they take an opposing POV.
Yeah OK I admit hated it and saw it in 2e too (Heck I like keeping the numbers secret till somewhat later.). Which is why it stands out in memory..
I am amazed out how things that seemed endemic in D&D get attributed as inventions of these other games... that annoys me yes both the bad and the good bits of D&D.
The newest D&D has all the mechanisms in place to maintain this mystery when we want it (skill checks and even specialized rituals mentioned directly)... and for those who aren't in to it... well permission to do it that way too.
DM makes an Aracana Check at 10+2 per level of the item for the PCs while resting. If the check is successful the PCs know the item. if it fails they don't. If the item is cursed (added to the game by me) then the DC increases by 5. A failed check reveals what the item would have been if it weren't cursed.
Instead of a ritual, how about making it work kind of like a skill challenge? More complex items require more successes. Relevant skills would probably include Arcana, Religion, and History. Maybe other stuff like Dungeoneering and Nature, depending on what the item actually is.
__________________ Stranded in Michigan's upper peninsula and trying to use the magic of the internet to roll dice and pretend to kill things.
Free identification is a crap idea, because it doesn't contain the all-important "unless the DM says otherwise" clause.
In other words, I agree there is no need for obstacles to identifying general crap loot.
But as written, a player can shove the PHB in the DMs face, demanding to know all the powers of the Mysterious Plot Item of Doom. And if the DM isn't strong enough to simply override the rules, that is a loss for the game.
Also, this power can be used to locate treasure (and monsters wielding magical weaponry) through doors and walls, which is simply absurd.
So I understand your elation. The idea was good, but the rule is horribly sloppy.
As someone pointed out already, it does have an exception clause for any items that you don't want identified for story reasons.
However, I'm confused why you want to add a ritual to require identification that you have basically admitted would be annoyance for the vast majority of items, so that you can circumvent a restriction that has been pointed out has already been accounted for, so that players can't point out that the rules say something differently.
You want to ignore a rule to prevent players from pointing out that you are ignoring a rule? Isn't there a certain irony here?
The DM certainly has the power to make thees changes, however I think you should consider the change carefully. You can bet there was a lot of thought and a lot of debate that went on internally with WotC before they made this choice, and there just might be some wisdom in their choice (and again, they left the door open for you to ignore it in special cases already).
I personally wouldn't add a ritual to the game. You really aren't adding anything of value to the game and are just creating a hoop to jump through and something to spend gold on for no compelling reason other than to preserve a mechanic that was often a source of frustration and annoyance in earlier editions.
However, as said again and again here, there are exceptions that the DM may choose! You might even want to make a quest or ritual that is nothing but identifying one special magic item... but make it something special, not just a +1 Flaming sword.
To the person who said that gamers will just assume that an item that isn't easily identified is cursed, that's only going to happen if every non-identifiable item your DM throws as you is cursed. That's not a game problem, that's being a predictable DM.
If it's an item that can't be identified by the players, that should only signify that this item is something other than the average run-of-the mill dropped magic item. It might be cursed. It might be a powerful artifact. It might be some mysterious relic that is either the subject of a mystery, or the key to unlocking one. Failing to identify an item should be a way to inspire curiosity, not inspire disinterest. If it's not, then maybe you are doing it wrong.
__________________ Law's Game Style: Storyteller 83%, Tactician 75%, Specialist 67%, Method Actor 58%, Power Gamer 33%, Casual Gamer 25%, Butt-Kicker 17%
If you charge a 5% surcharge on identifying magic items, you need to hand out about 15% more monetary treasure to cover the charges.
My personal view is that handing out 4 magic items per level and bickering about them consumes enough time at the table as-is; I can't see any reason to complicate the process further. If you run a low-magic game, I can see reasons to make each item more unique. In a standard game, the base rule works just fine.
__________________ Carl Cramér
Member of the Netbook of Feats review board.
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