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Interesting idea, not sure how well it would work in practice though. It could be far to easy to utterly disable a noble's minions.
When I read 'Noble: Martial controller', I was expecting something more like a skilled weapons master with a nimble blade and a biting tongue. With your choice of class skills (which I agree with, BTW), I was somehow even expecting some abilities that used social interaction in combat to fulfill a controller's role... (not sure how you'd pull that one off, but it could be interesting).
As it reads, the noble just hides while others do the work.
My other issue is one of suspension of disbelief. I just can't see a logical setup where there are extra minions continually pouring in to wherever the adventurers happen to be... It's almost like the concept would work more logically as an arcane summoning, or a character that created and tinkered with constructs.
An interesting and adventurous effort though: let us know how it goes in playtests..
Mechanics-wise, it might be better to allow each enemy to be attacked only once regardless of how many minions it is adjacent to, or it might become too easy to focus damage. This would emphasize the controller nature of the class. Additional adjacent minions might provide a bonus to the attack roll instead.
Flavor-wise, I think some might find the ability to summon minions anywhere (potentially, in the dungeon, the wilderness, hostile lands, or other planes) to be too unrealistic for the martial power source. However, if you re-flavor it as a necromancer with a horde of undead minions, or a variant summoner with a group of creatures instead of a single, more powerful one (depending on the type of creatures summoned, the power source could be arcane, divine, primal or even psionic), it might be a better way to express the idea of a character who controls the battlefield through the use of minions.
In my opinion it needs tweaking, for flavor and balance.
I like the concept of having minions fight for you, but it feels very much like ignoring narrative in favor of game mechanics. Why can only a noble get people to fight for him, but not a warlord, or a charismatic rogue?
Also, the idea of new minions just appearing out of nowhere because you need reinforcements is wacky. I think with a slight adjust to the minion mechanics, though, you can tweak the flavor to be more believable.
I think you could set up your noble so that he has four loyal followers, which count as minions of his level. They would have four states instead of three - fine, bloodied, down, and dead. Fine and bloodied work as normal. When one of your minions goes to 0, he's down (unconscious).
Killing one of your minions is hard. They might go down fast, but they're scrappy. If your minion is fine, he dies if he takes damage in one hit equal to 5 + twice your level (basically, his hit points plus your level). If he's bloodied, he dies if he takes damage in one hit equal to 5 + your level. If he's down, he dies if he takes damage in one hit equal to your level.
This lets them fall, and lie on the battlefield with a decent chance of not dying. When you take a short rest, all your surviving minions return to full hp. If a minion dies, you have to either raise him (but the Raise Dead ritual costs 1/10 its normal amount), or recruit a new one.
As for directing minions, I'd do something like:
Opportunity action to have a single minion make an opportunity attack.
Minor action to have all of your minions perform a move action.
Minor action to have a single minion make a basic attack.
Standard action to use an at-will power that has them all attack.
Standard to bolster your minions. You spend a healing surge, but don't heal. Instead, bloodied minions become fine, unconscious ones become bloodied, and all of them can stand up or shift 2 squares. (Sure, this uses up the noble's own healing, but if he's using his retinue right, they'll be blocking enemies from hurting him.
If you're following 4th edition standard style, you'd want to list each of these as a separate at-will power that all nobles get, in addition to their at-will attacks. Also, using the druid as a basis, I'd say give him three at-wills, of which one or two must be retinue powers.
That, for me, would fix the flavor issue. There's still the balance issue. You have an at-will power that dazes, another that immobilizes (for how long?). The wording for a few makes them a bit unclear (does unruly shove slide multiple times, letting the minions bounce an enemy around so they all can hit him?).
It's an interesting idea, but obviously making a whole class, and being balanced with it, is tough. I worry that the noble himself does nothing without his minions (except dazes a target every round; woo that's strong), and that the minions do nothing without their commander, but you could fix all of that.
Maybe say that if the noble is down, the minions can each act on their own, but without the bolstering effect of their leader, they take a -5 penalty to all attacks and defenses.
Again, it's odd that you need a class to have buddies tag along with you (in pre-2nd edition, I heard lots of stories of people going around with 20+ cohorts and hirelings on every adventure), but it could be fun to play.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel, free at EN World. Part Two, The Irons Have Tolled, now available.
Interesting ideas RW, I want more interesting general minion rules (even with bloodiable) I was calling the extra state... wounded and allowing healing surges.
Normal hirelings could flee if confronted by the bad guys when bloodied making them far less useful... your loyalists do not and continue the fight inspired by your presence....
I would want a build of a Warlord.. to use minions but I can see why the controller role might need the new class in 4e... multi-role classes arent very workable at times. Warlords dont put up with pansies so maybe they just need to interact with heros.
- The noble needs at least some actions he can take uner his own power, or a well-placed enemy AOE will cripple him, plus he can't actually enter the fray at all, which is odd for a martial class. Hanging back and blasting is more of an arcane idiom.
- Expressing the retinue as minions rather than, say, summons, creates some fictional weirdness (Sure boss, we'll follow you into battle even though earlier today, we saw Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Sneezy, Dopey, Bashful, and Doc get taken down by one hit from a fire beetle...) and burns a lot of powers on minion restoration.
- The "Cha mod +1" is a very strange number of power activations!
- The Retinue keyword is undefined.
- Maybe define Retinue as follows:
"Powers with the Retinue keyword require that at least one retainer be adjacent to the target, and that retainer must not be immobilized or otherwise unable to take actions (too lazy to look up all the statuses right now). Powers with "Retinue N" require N adjacent retainers to use."
That'll condense the text of a good number of class powers.
- If Call Reinforcements is an attack power, then the retainer placed should perform an attack as part of the power. This is true of all the other "attack" powers as well.
- Powers that affect "all your retainers" should allow you to participate as well.
First thoughts when I opened this thread "Oh great, another crackpot with a wacko idea!".
Thoughts after reading doco...Great! I actually smiled reading this. I though it was genuinly clever. It took a vastly needed gap (the martial controller) and filled the hole with and idea that is genuinly new and interesting. A minion based class! Brilliant!
That said, my temptation when building upon the idea would see the integration of the noble into the combat a bit more. This is a martial class and I would see him getting involved a bit more. Things like....
"Utility power. Immediate interupt, when noble would otherwise get hit. Minion takes the damage"
"Encounter Power. When noble attacks inspires followers to make an immediate interupt attack"
...generally stuff that encourages the player to get in there and give it a go, otherwise it might not be an interesting enough class to keep people engaged
One other thing. This is a noble,so fluff wise I would follow the line that they had access to money and military training when growing up and I would further extend this to armor use.
My take on this would be that they can wear all armor up to plate and including heavy shields (possibly even a free superior weapon option. Fits the fluff, gives us a second plate wearer and allows for the class to get into the fray without too much risk
Ok, let's see what I can do to make this more interesting:
a) Clarify the rules for retinues and refine the keyword with powers.
b) Create some powers which let the noble participate in combat. I think it's a good idea to slant the noble with a tint of swashbuckler and give him some burst 1 attacks and introduce some crazy stunt powers.
c) Nobles are masters of intrigue. We should be able to give them some non-cambat class powers to reflect that.
Generally folks are positive about the minions and having a class which can replenish them continuously. Some minor refinements here.
Some further ideas I want you guys to think about and critique.
a) I'm seeing if I can get the old school Chainmail 3rd edition rules to be integrate into the Noble class engine to do something for the grognards here, I wonder what you think ?
b) High level nobles should be masters of the domination power. I want to see if a Song of Ice and Fire can provide inspiration there.
c) The ultimate noble is Petyr Baelish of Game of Thrones.
Until I read the last part about Petyr, I was only kinda interested in this. Now, I will certainly give it a more than cursory glance. I'll get back on how it looks compared to him probably tomorrow. Good choice, btw, on a representing character to look to for an example.
__________________ OP By Stalker0
Neo: "So, what are you trying to tell me? At 30th level I don't get anything?"
Morpheus: "No Neo. I'm telling you that when you're 30th level; you won't need anything."
a) Minions should function as normal 4E minions and should not be mechanically different from monster minions because they should be reused as monsters in a campaign. But somehow the economy of actions must be preserved such that the Minions act off the Noble's actions.
b) The game will become more interesting if minions have powers attached to their description that can only be activated by the noble. Eg. Eunuch warriors can perform a broad-slash off their two handed scimitars. Ninjas can poison someone. Myrmidons form a shield wall. These powers will require an expenditure of an encounter action.
c) The "Implement" mechanic that grants attack and damage bonuses to minions can be a number called House reputation that grows as the Noble gains more influence. Heraldry as a new form of magical item indentification, anyone ?
d) Nobles should perform "rituals" through Bluff, Intimidate and Diplomacy. Eg. Nobles can call an economic embargo on a city state using their money and influence. Level 15 rituals allows formation of alliances via marriages. Level 30 Noble rituals can subvert entire nations.
e) A noble multiclass feat should allow any 4E PC to have a pair of flunkies accompany them on adventures.
Anyway would you guys pay for a downloadble product if it can be made a 60-80 page product with rules on political intrigue, building a noble house with a martial controller class ?
Some more ideas :
a) Minions should function as normal 4E minions and should not be mechanically different from monster minions because they should be reused as monsters in a campaign. But somehow the economy of actions must be preserved such that the Minions act off the Noble's actions.
I wouldnt confine your design so much.
a) I don't think minions who are being inspired and guided by a hero are exactly like normal 4e monster minions, that said, I think you will find many of the suggestions about bloodiable, healable and tougher minions are adjustments people are making to various minions... not necessarily companions by a long shot.
I think you could set up your noble so that he has four loyal followers, which count as minions of his level. They would have four states instead of three - fine, bloodied, down, and dead. Fine and bloodied work as normal. When one of your minions goes to 0, he's down (unconscious).
Killing one of your minions is hard. They might go down fast, but they're scrappy. If your minion is fine, he dies if he takes damage in one hit equal to 5 + twice your level (basically, his hit points plus your level). If he's bloodied, he dies if he takes damage in one hit equal to 5 + your level. If he's down, he dies if he takes damage in one hit equal to your level.
This lets them fall, and lie on the battlefield with a decent chance of not dying. When you take a short rest, all your surviving minions return to full hp. If a minion dies, you have to either raise him (but the Raise Dead ritual costs 1/10 its normal amount), or recruit a new one.
As for directing minions, I'd do something like:
Opportunity action to have a single minion make an opportunity attack.
Minor action to have all of your minions perform a move action.
Minor action to have a single minion make a basic attack.
Standard action to use an at-will power that has them all attack.
Standard to bolster your minions. You spend a healing surge, but don't heal. Instead, bloodied minions become fine, unconscious ones become bloodied, and all of them can stand up or shift 2 squares. (Sure, this uses up the noble's own healing, but if he's using his retinue right, they'll be blocking enemies from hurting him.
I think this is a wonderful idea, RangerWickett. It fixes pretty much all of the problems I had with the minions before!
These changes would also negate the need for 'Call in reinforcements!' powers, which frees things up for nobles to have combat powers of their own. (I would love to see a noble in the front lines, battling it out with their retinue..)
Now we just need to put together some guidelines for replacing dead followers...
Could nobles potentially get access to a 'raise follower' ritual at a certain level, without having to take the ritual caster feat? perhaps a few more follower-based rituals could be put together.. or just add a note to existing group-benefit rituals so that they also give a specific benefit to 'followers'.
Followers, Minions, Retinue... Not sure what to call them, but they shouldn't be called minions. Calling them minions makes them seem too expendable. These should be your prize soldiers - tougher than a minion, more skilled, more important (I could also see some players getting sentimental about their retinue)
A Few Random Ideas:
I would also shy away from giving too many specific powers to followers. To preserve speed of play, your retinue will have to function as a unit, or in conjunction with you.
(This one risks crossing role boundaries, but might be an interesting way to help fulfill the controller function) Giving the Noble a way to mark ememies and enable his followers to make AOO's against them. He can effectively 'control the battlefield' by making making certain paths of action tactically unsound for his opponents..
Utility powers for different stances and formations that effect the entire retinue (and possibly the noble as well). These group stances would effect their fighting style. Perhaps these powers could even be done as class features - different stances for different types of nobles.
Quote:
Minions should function as normal 4E minions and should not be mechanically different from monster minions because they should be reused as monsters in a campaign. But somehow the economy of actions must be preserved such that the Minions act off the Noble's actions.
Not so keen on this. they have a different purpose in the game, and should function to fulfill that purpose.
Quote:
b) The game will become more interesting if minions have powers attached to their description that can only be activated by the noble. Eg. Eunuch warriors can perform a broad-slash off their two handed scimitars. Ninjas can poison someone. Myrmidons form a shield wall. These powers will require an expenditure of an encounter action.
Daily powers linked to your retinue? Sure! Having the powers limited by the type of follower? Not so sure.
Quote:
c) The "Implement" mechanic that grants attack and damage bonuses to minions can be a number called House reputation that grows as the Noble gains more influence. Heraldry as a new form of magical item indentification, anyone ?
Interesting idea. if it's going to be an 'implement' mechanic, it might be good to stick with heraldry, just so you have a physical implement that can be purchased. I'd like to see where you take this one.
Quote:
d) Nobles should perform "rituals" through Bluff, Intimidate and Diplomacy. Eg. Nobles can call an economic embargo on a city state using their money and influence. Level 15 rituals allows formation of alliances via marriages. Level 30 Noble rituals can subvert entire nations.
Another interesting idea. Do some write ups . The one thing I'd be wary of is removing the role playing element of these intrigues. if a process could be included in the 'ritual' (like RPing, a skill challenge, and a series of encounters), then it might actually be possible to put together a system that encourages people to RP and participate in the intrigue.
Quote:
e) A noble multiclass feat should allow any 4E PC to have a pair of flunkies accompany them on adventures.
Agreed.
Quote:
Anyway would you guys pay for a downloadble product if it can be made a 60-80 page product with rules on political intrigue, building a noble house with a martial controller class ?
Ok, let's see what I can do to make this more interesting:
a) Clarify the rules for retinues and refine the keyword with powers.
b) Create some powers which let the noble participate in combat. I think it's a good idea to slant the noble with a tint of swashbuckler and give him some burst 1 attacks and introduce some crazy stunt powers.
c) Nobles are masters of intrigue. We should be able to give them some non-cambat class powers to reflect that.
Generally folks are positive about the minions and having a class which can replenish them continuously. Some minor refinements here.
Some further ideas I want you guys to think about and critique.
a) I'm seeing if I can get the old school Chainmail 3rd edition rules to be integrate into the Noble class engine to do something for the grognards here, I wonder what you think ?
b) High level nobles should be masters of the domination power. I want to see if a Song of Ice and Fire can provide inspiration there.
c) The ultimate noble is Petyr Baelish of Game of Thrones.
Regards
He quoted Song of Ice and Fire! Oh, you have my utter support now...Greatest series of books ever written! (does anyone know when the next one comes out?)
I too noticed the gap of the martial controller, but I was thinking of something along the lines of a grenadier, using alchemical explosives for area burst powers. When I saw your noble, I first thought of the Star Wars roleplaying game, which has noble as one of the classes. The way this noble works is much like what Cwheeler thought: a debonair marksman who relies more on their force of personality than their gun skills (or in this case perhaps, archery). The idea of minions hadn't occured to me, so I say much kudos to you for thinking of the idea! However, the mechanics and (perhaps more importantly) the roleplaying aspects of having minions does not suite a player character, and so is extremely difficult to manage (as you have probably noticed).
My suggestion is to go in a completely different direction. The noble could use close burst attacks and some ranged or melee attacks, somewhat resembling the bard without magic, using force of personality to achieve their means. They could use primarily Charisma and then choose between Intelligence or Wisdom, with Dexterity helping the ranged attacks a bit and Strength aiding the melee attacks.
A power could be as such: Biting Insult Noble Attack 1 A sharp verbal jab distracts and enrages your enemies.
At-Will * Martial
Standard Action Close burst 10
Target: Three creatures in burst
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 1d6 + Charisma modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the start of your next turn. Level 21: 2d6 + Charisma modifier psychic damage.
I just made this up to show you what I mean for the flavor of the powers. This could also mean that the noble has leader as a secondary role, but secondary roles are so vague that it's completely up to you. With burst attacks that target a certain number of targets, it can be like area bursts or you can spread the damage all over the battlefield. The controller aspect comes in when the target becomes immobilized either from confusion, flattery, or intimidation, and at higher levels maybe even dominated for a short period of time.
Of course, there could also be powers that use weapons, like a rougish feint or a distracting call before shooting an arrow (think: "What's that?!" pointing behind the monster, then when it looks away, shooting an arrow at it!).
A problem arises with the purely vocal attacks. There is no weapon or implement involved, which is a serious problem as their attacks could never be enhanced by magic items. You could change it so that all their attacks are weapon attacks, but that destroys the prospect of bursts and blasts. Another more drastic option is creating a category of implements, maybe something like a family crest. There could be magic crests on head items or neck items that enhance your attacks with magic representing your noble heritage.
Thanks again for giving me these ideas! Nothing makes me happier than creating new game rules. Keep up the great ideas! I'm going to see if I can work a grenadier into D&D terminology...
Take a look at Althai, my D&D 4e campaign setting, and The_Heroes of Althai, the dramedy of the heroes who did and will affect Althai. (Both on the backburner for now.)
Implements I think the nobility does have them... : articles of regalia, crowns, banners, crests and yes rods... and maybe excaliber....er I mean family heirloom swords. They are proofs of nobility and yes it makes there power greater.
a debonair marksman who relies more on their force of personality than their gun skills (or in this case perhaps, archery)
Mmm, I can taste the flavor already...
It seems like we have two separate versions of the class - one being a soloist, and the other with his retinue...
I do like the idea of the retinue, and if a way could be found to implement it without slowing the game or adding too much complexity, that would be great. Perhaps reducing the number of followers and increasing their durability would be the way to go.
On a related side note: Has anyone played (either as a player or a dm) with any of the 'pet' classes?
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
Minions now appear within 5 squares of the noble. That means they can appear straight into melee. For a Martial character, this kind of summoning is very odd indeed.
I suggest all powers that summon be rewritten to that minions appear within 15 squares, need line-of-effect but not line-of sight, and cannot summon within 5 squares of an enemy. This way, the minions can somewhat plausibly be said to appear out of the fog of war.
I support this as a build of the Warlord or perhaps even of my own Mastermind (see my sig), tough development of that class is pretty dead now.
__________________ Carl Cramér
Member of the Netbook of Feats review board.
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