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I've cross posted this at rpg.net but I was curious what the Enworld folks thought about the subject. Thanks.
I've been thinking about what I call 'fluff' magic from earlier editions of D&D. The lion share of which have been handed over to ritual casting. One of the biggest issues I have with rituals is the actual GP cost to cast many of them. It in effect acts as a ritual tax on characters that develop ritual casting as a feat (or get it as a class benefit.). The problem is in earlier editions many of these spells didn't have a defined cost, you could just do them X number times a day. Or the material cost was so negligable that it didn't bother the caster to carry around cheep tools to cast them.
I was trying to come up with elagent in-system ways to giving some cost savings back to ritual casters w/out invalidating the balance and enconmy of the D&D game and I think I have a solution.
2 feats:
Frugal Caster - Requirement: Ritual Casting feat.
Benefit: A reduction to material costs of all Ritual Casting by 10 GP per level.
Reason: As a feat it's minor but adds a huge benefit in those first few levels where 10GP matters most. It opens up a lot of early rituals to casting and makes them very 'useful' without damaging the overall cost of the bigger and more powerful later rituals.
Benefit: You gain the ability to cast 1 ritual at your level or lower once a day at no cost.
Special: Rituals with variable costs are not allowed to be chosen with this feat. Ritual foci costs are not reduced only the individual casting.
Reason: It works like the class feature that Druid, Bard, and Invoker get in PB2. Which honestly I think Wizard and Cleric should also be given in errata. For the cost of a feat you can train in and out of an existing ritual as you level. Limiting out variable cost and foci keeps people from having free divinations and raise dead. Etc.
As far as I know nothing like this has hit a book, but I could go back and re-read DDI to make sure I'm not covering something that's already been addressed. These are just raw ideas and I'm honestly looking for a logical house rule(s) or rulings. Any ideas on the subject?
I already house rule the Ritual cost for Clerics and Wizards for their 1 free ritual at 1st level.
What are your thoughts on Ritual casting and the cost to the party at large? Do you withold a 10% value of treasure parcels? Grant an extra parcel of ritual components? Not charge PC's for some rituals?
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Yea, I dont think this idea is out of line at all (though perhaps better posted in the house rules forum)
The one per day is a good one, but the 10 gold less is a little stingy, I would caveat a proportional approach, something like "Better of 10gp per level or 50%".
I actually homebrewed up 'Ritual Facilities' for this purpose.
"Library of Divination"
"Forge of Creation"
etc.
These are a kind of wondrous item that has to be assembled in a fixed location where they stay.
Ritual Facilities allow you to perform rituals of a certain type at a 50% discount, and they often come with other features as well.
Ritual Facilities can be found set up in dungeons, and players can contruct their own when they have their own base of operations.
Ritual Facilities can also be built into vehicles large enough to hold them (like the Airship).
Consider giving out ritual components, either by replacing some monetary treasure or by giving more on top of the standard monetary treasure. It removes the ambivalent "Well, is 100 gp really worth it for this ritual? We can probably do without it and I need to save for that ____."
If the DM wants the players to use more rituals, he'll give them more GP.
Except there's no guarantee that they'll get used on rituals, and a lot of players are going to be hoarders, holding onto the cash for their next big magic item upgrade.
Personally I like the idea of just handing out ritual components: killed a dragon? X gp of arcana-tied ritual components. Killed a treant? X gp of nature-tied ritual components.
You can even add in more specificity, like the components from that red dragon count double when used in a fire-related ritual (control fire, craft a flaming weapon, create alchemist's fire etc).
Mostlyjoe I like your idea but I would even expand on it a bit, based on the Bard's model. Bards get to cast any one Bard ritual (2 at Paragon and 3 at Epic) a day, with no cost other than the required foci. Perhaps allowing a ritualist to cast one ritual of a specific category (chosen when the feat is taken) per day would be reasonable. This could also scale with tier.
You can even add in more specificity, like the components from that red dragon count double when used in a fire-related ritual (control fire, craft a flaming weapon, create alchemist's fire etc).
Draconomicon has some good suggestions for things like this.
Personally, I actually prefer non-monetary rewards.
Mostlyjoe I like your idea but I would even expand on it a bit, based on the Bard's model. Bards get to cast any one Bard ritual (2 at Paragon and 3 at Epic) a day, with no cost other than the required foci. Perhaps allowing a ritualist to cast one ritual of a specific category (chosen when the feat is taken) per day would be reasonable. This could also scale with tier.
Hmm. That works better. A lot of times it seems a feat can grant most of a class feature I just didn't know if I had gone far enough.
I debated putting this up in Houserules, but this OP was also my issue and thoughts on ritual casting and the costs involved. I want to make the players interested in using ritual magic and RAW doesn't really invite much but the most frugal uses. I guess that's fine in the short run, but I really want to make rituals more viable for my players.
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If the DM wants the players to use more rituals, he'll give them more GP.
You don't use GP in rituals, you use ritual components. You buy the right types of components in advance (Based on the key skill) and you track which components you use. This is so that, for example, you want to keep raise dead out of the players' hands for a while, you can make the Religion component unavailable, while handing out Arcana components.
It -isn't- a matter of 'Pay 50 gp, get ritual' but it's 'pay 50 gp, get tools for 50gp worth of rituals, to be used later.'
So, if you want more rituals, ritual components (or residuum if you don't care) is -exactly- the right way to encourage their use.
In my game the wizard and cleric both have the ability to once per day cast a ritual for free that:
1) Has the primary skill for their class (arcana for wizard, religion for cleric)
2) Is 5 or more levels lower than there level.
3) Has a fixed cost (no craft magic item).
So far this has worked very well, and I might one day allow it as a feat for other casters to take.
You don't use GP in rituals, you use ritual components.
You use undefined components with a GP value. 500GP has the same value as 500GP of components. Are you really going to screw around with components in a game where the type of coin players find is determined by their level and the magic items they find are off wish lists? No. Toss a bunch of coins on the ground and go for it.
For many parties hitting up Sigil or Dis for something is trivial in paragon and possible even in heroic. Putting artificial hoops in their path that are trivial to overcome is not in the spirit of the system, nor is tracking how many of which component you have for each of the potentially dozens of rituals you can do. Very ugly.
No, you use broadly defined components with a GP value.
Arcana rituals require various powders, salts, and animal extracts, Religion rituals require oils and salves, etc.
You use undefined components with a GP value. 500GP has the same value as 500GP of components. Are you really going to screw around with components in a game where the type of coin players find is determined by their level and the magic items they find are off wish lists?
As with the other things you mentioned: if it helps improve the game, yes.
Magic items that players don't actually want are boring, as is finding small change on defeated foes. So those things don't, by default, happen.
Handing out stuff that only works for rituals is going to make players use rituals more without worrying about the cost of doing so: IMHO, that will help the game not hinder it.
You use undefined components with a GP value. 500GP has the same value as 500GP of components. Are you really going to screw around with components in a game where the type of coin players find is determined by their level and the magic items they find are off wish lists? No. Toss a bunch of coins on the ground and go for it.
Are you saying that a game that centers around multiple forms of resource management would not require you to manage resources?
I do not understand what you are talking about; my PHB does not either. It's pretty specific on what skills use what components, and that you need them in advance. Only residuum can be used in that manner as a universal resource for rituals, others are not so simple.
Quote:
For many parties hitting up Sigil or Dis for something is trivial in paragon and possible even in heroic. Putting artificial hoops in their path that are trivial to overcome is not in the spirit of the system, nor is tracking how many of which component you have for each of the potentially dozens of rituals you can do. Very ugly.
It's not that ugly. You keep track of the skills involved. Some rituals have more than one skill, meaning more than one component can be used--this information is included in every master list of rituals in every source. Given that there's only a handful of skills, and a handful of resources, it's not difficult.
So, let's say I have raise dead, cure disease, tenser's floating disc, disenchant magic item, and magic circle. I don't need to track each individual ritual, I track my components by skill.
So, raise dead and cure disease are Heal-based, and Tenser's and Magic circle are Arcana based. So I just need to track my heal-based components (probably only enough to cast raise dead a couple times) and my arcana-based components (More of those because tenser's comes up daily, but is trivial in amount), and the residuum that can be used for either should the situation call for it.
3 pools of resources. That's it. It's not difficult, and it's how it's presented in the book. You can choose to ignore it, but some dms and players prefer the challenge of having to prepare for the day ahead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeviomagy
Handing out stuff that only works for rituals is going to make players use rituals more without worrying about the cost of doing so: IMHO, that will help the game not hinder it.
Agreed with this, with one step further. If the party decides not to use the components, to save them for later, then even -that- adds to the game. The party has been offered a decision point where they feel they are in control of their game. Decision points are good for the game, and giving the players more chances to make decisions that benefit them is fun for them.
Last edited by DracoSuave; 19th June 2009 at 07:08 AM..
Are you saying that a game that centers around multiple forms of resource management would not require you to manage resources?
The way I see its that I don''t want to play Accountants & Attorneys the RPG; that bookkeeping is a necessary evil that should be kept to a minimum, and that juggling different kinds of currencies is not my idea of fun.
Others might enjoy A&A, but in my game gp = ritual components.
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The way I see its that I don''t want to play Accountants & Attorneys the RPG; that bookkeeping is a necessary evil that should be kept to a minimum, and that juggling different kinds of currencies is not my idea of fun.
Others might enjoy A&A, but in my game gp = ritual components.
That's a matter of personal taste, and little more than that.
However, the seperate ritual components does enforce one simple benefit. It makes the skill used in rituals that don't require a roll to matter. Also, it makes Disenchant -matter-. If you can just plunk down gold coins in your magic circle, then there's no benefit whatsoever to having risiduum even existing in the game, so there's no point disenchanting when you can just sell the weapons.
I mean, yeah, if you're in a city where components are easily attained, go for it, gp=components. But outside a city? Really? Do your players have the ability to perchase ten-foot poles and magic vorpal blades from out of nowhere? (Well, I suppose they could with Enchant Magic Item)
You gotta pay some attention to suspension of disbelief tho. There's some people who believe the ability to spend an hour and summon a 1000gp magic item out of nothing is somewhat jarring to the versimiliatude; if that character isn't carrying 1000gp worth of Arcana components and/or residuum tho, that's hardly a problem.
If the problem is the bookkeeping, however, then previous editions must have been particularily troublesome for you. It's not like you're keeping track of how much bat quano, sulfer, and marjoram you have on you. Heck, components sounds like something better handled with party treasure, and usually you have someone keeping track of that for you.
So to make your personal bookkeeping simple, you simply ask 'Hey, do we have any Arcana stuff?' to the guy who's doing all the bookkeeping. Let him deal with it.
I wonder if this might be a simpler way to manage this:
Once per day, a PC may expend a daily utility power in place of the component cost for any ritual of the power's level or below.
Alternatively, a PC may expend a magic item daily power in place of the component cost for any ritual of the magic item's level or below.
It probably need a little refinement (can't use it to make magic items, etc.) and maybe some tweaking (should it be level-2 for powers and level-5 for magic items?) but you get the general idea.
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