4e Fan Creations and House RulesWorking on variant powers? Statting up a PC race or your version of a monster? Creating or converting an adventure? Put it here!
Since WotC is now releasing "math-fix" feats, such as Expertise and the new defense feats which fix issues with the mathematical progression of PCs, I figure we could use feats to fix classes with "MAD" (multiple ability disorder). Of course, this has all the drawbacks of using a feat to fix an issue with the system (it's a feat-tax to those who take it and an imbalance to those who don't) but also has some advantages (it's easy to integrate a new feat into the game, because the exception-based design anticipates the release of new feats which contain custom rules). So here are some MAD-Fix feats.
INVESTITURE OF BATTLE Prerequisites: Cleric, Strength 13+ Benefit: All of your cleric powers that use Wisdom for attack and/or damage now use Strength for attack and/or damage instead. If such a power uses Charisma for any calculation or effect, it now uses Wisdom for that calculation or effect instead.
INVESTITURE OF DEVOTION Prerequisites: Cleric, Wisdom 13+ Benefit: All of your cleric powers that use Strength for attack and/or damage now use Wisdom for attack and/or damage instead. If such a power uses Charisma for any calculation or effect, it now uses Strength for that calculation or effect instead.
PACT OF BLOOD Prerequisites: Warlock, Constitution 13+ Benefit: All of your warlock powers that use Charisma for attack and/or damage now use Constitution for attack and/or damage instead. If such a power uses Intelligence for any calculation or effect, it now uses Charisma for that calculation or effect instead.
PACT OF CUNNING Prerequisites: Warlock, Charisma 13+ Benefit: All of your warlock powers that use Constitution for attack and/or damage now use Charisma for attack and/or damage instead. If such a power uses Intelligence for any calculation or effect, it now uses Constitution for that calculation or effect instead.
RITES OF VALOR Prerequisites: Paladin, Strength 13+ Benefit: All of your paladin powers that use Charisma for attack and/or damage now use Strength for attack and/or damage instead. If such a power uses Wisdom for any calculation or effect, it now uses Charisma for that calculation or effect instead.
RITES OF VIRTUE Prerequisites: Paladin, Charisma 13+ Benefit: All of your paladin powers that use Strength for attack and/or damage now use Charisma for attack and/or damage instead. If such a power uses Wisdom for any calculation or effect, it now uses Strength for that calculation or effect instead.
For completeness, here are some feats for rangers. However, I feel that rangers are perfectly viable despite their MAD, because many ranger powers can use either Str or Dex already, and because the two paths (melee and ranged) are so distinct that there's little lost by ranger PCs forced to specialize in just one. A ranger with consolidated ability scores might also be overpowered, which is why these feats carry additional restrictions regarding which weapons you can use.
WILD MIGHT Prerequisites: Ranger, Strength 13+ Benefit: All of your ranger powers that use Dexterity for attack and/or damage now use Strength for attack and/or damage instead, provided you are using a melee weapon or heavy thrown weapon. If such a power uses Wisdom for any calculation or effect, it now uses Dexterity for that calculation or effect instead.
WILD SWIFTNESS Prerequisites: Ranger, Dexterity 13+ Benefit: All of your ranger powers that use Strength for attack and/or damage now use Dexterity for attack and/or damage instead, provided you are using a ranged weapon or light blade or weapon with the off-hand property. If such a power uses Wisdom for any calculation or effect, it now uses Strength for that calculation or effect instead.
-- 77IM
Last edited by 77IM; 24th June 2009 at 02:08 AM..
Reason: Incorporate FireLance's suggestion for rangers
It doesnt sound quite like a joke but in order to mimic Expertise you have to make it a "must have" feat for everyone not just particular builds.... .. And I want a Strength wisdom paladin sigh... I can currently hybrid a low charisma high wisdom str paladin but my challenge is worthless...
If low charisma doesn't sound right just start thinking "holier than thou" and "judgmental" ... no really they don't just think they are ... they really are.
The intention is that since divine challenge "uses Charisma for damage" that it is eligible for the switcheroo (becoming based upon Strength instead). And you can have a Str/Wis paladin just by taking the existing Str powers, which use Wis as a secondary stat. Only those powers which were originally Cha for attack/damage will switch to use Cha for secondary effects, similar to other SAD classes which have a single attack ability and then two different secondary stats.
eriktheguy, this wasn't a joke but it wasn't totally serious either, in that I don't think using feats to fix MAD is ultimately the best idea and am really hoping to spark discussion. Also, I am already happily married, but if you would like to be my mistress I will be the father of your children.
FireLance, that's... a really fantastic idea! Not only does it make sense, it fixes most of the balance issues (heavy thrown weapons and light blades both tend towards lower [W] values).
And you can have a Str/Wis paladin just by taking the existing Str powers, which use Wis as a secondary stat.
-- 77IM
It occured to me that since charisma and wisdom are each a Will Power Stat and both seem to represent either inborn(charisma) or learned(wisdom) understanding/communication with the divine .. that a swap out of Wisdom for Charisma actually makes real sense....
Strength taking charisma's location in some places feels fine after you reskin what is happening.. but a charisma ... wisdom swap well that doesnt even take any reskinning.
So I'm kind of new to the whole MAD issue but I want a clarification.
Paladins are an example of a class with MAD issues because their powers rely on both Cha and Str to hit, and receive secondary effects from Cha and Wis.
Rogues are not an example of a class with MAD issues because their powers always rely on Dex to hit, and only rely on Str/Cha for secondary effects.
Fighters are okay, even though their extra abilities rely on Con, Wis, and Dex, for secondary effects because all their attacks rely on Str to hit.
Are the above statements correct?
Yeah, that's pretty much it. It refers to needing multiple abilities to make your attacks. Everyone benefits from various abilities for secondary purposes, but attacks and damage are so crucial to the system that splitting them between two scores is a detriment to those classes.
Well then I can definitely see the issue here. We have one paladin in the party and he basically had the choice between
-halving his options for powers
-taking -1 to half his attacks
As the paladin he is already about -1 to hit compared to the fighter/rogue so the second option pretty much sucks.
I came up with something similar to this a while ago, but saw little feedback on it. It's the following feat. It could shore things up for your feats a little and leave room for other options.
Unorthodox Training
Benefit: Pick two key abilities from your class. When one is referenced in a power from that class, use the other, and vice versa.
So you would pick Strength and Charisma for the above paladin. Your divine challenge now uses strength and your other paladin powers with Charisma referenced in them are strength as well. The cost of this is having your Strength-based powers become Charisma focused instead.
__________________ OP By Stalker0
Neo: "So, what are you trying to tell me? At 30th level I don't get anything?"
Morpheus: "No Neo. I'm telling you that when you're 30th level; you won't need anything."
I came up with something similar to this a while ago, but saw little feedback on it. It's the following feat. It could shore things up for your feats a little and leave room for other options.
Unorthodox Training
Benefit: Pick two key abilities from your class. When one is referenced in a power from that class, use the other, and vice versa.
So you would pick Strength and Charisma for the above paladin. Your divine challenge now uses strength and your other paladin powers with Charisma referenced in them are strength as well. The cost of this is having your Strength-based powers become Charisma focused instead.
So it's a switch? I think this is especially cruel. In a way its funny too.
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