Total N00b questions and house rule fixes...

[Dmanx]

Now I wouldn't say I'm a total n00b here, but I haven't played D&D for a VERY long time.

Got the idea among friends of mine to start up a game again. I used to be in a campaign back in like 1999 (I'm guessing AD&D 2.5), the days of THAC0 and all that wonderful stuff. We had a crazy campaign going in a completely customized world, lots of house rules, etc...

I just picked up the 4th edition core set of books, thinking there couldn't be that many changes to the game since I've played. I was definitely wrong there.

Now, my question here is how would it be possible to alter the 4th ed rules in such a way as to give it the feel of 2nd edition AD&D (minus THAC0 and all that other bs). I was thinking of eliminating skill modifiers (you get a base roll equal to your stats + whatever modifier in any skill you haved, and a -2 to anything you don't), simplifying AC (1 AC stat altered by whatever type of armor stat modifier your class can wear) and otherwise just eliminating whatever makes 4th editon into paper and pen WoW.

[Garthanos]

Originally Posted by Dmanx

and otherwise just eliminating whatever makes 4th editon into paper and pen WoW.

bye

[Flipguarder]

Honestly? You probably aren't going to have much luck here. Most people in this forum wish to discuss 4e and how to fix minor flaws in its overall system, not how to magically change it into the game you played 10 years ago. 4e is extremely reliant on things like AC and attack modifiers NOT being completely reworked. They have a numerical system in place, and to deny the game that system breaks it pretty much without fail. Not trying to say that your mission can't be accomplished, but unless you are an extreme wizard with game systems and numbers, you probably won't succeed at turning this game into 2.5.

Also comparing 4e to wow is going to net you precisely 0 internets here.

As for remaking the same world that you had in 1999 with extra features and possibilities, this is done very often in 4e as the actual cosmology is rarely that important. New races, new magic, technology can all be implanted into a 4e setting with reskinning and copy pasting of existing material. Really not that hard

You would probably get more help if you posted this in the general rpg area.

Sorry if this came off too harsh.

[Eric Finley]

Not to mention that when you go to "simplify" the AC subdivision, you then need to add back in saving throws versus, what was it again? Death, petrification, poison, rays, and I forget what else. Honestly, the conversion of those into the Fortitude / Reflex / Will defense values is IMO extremely true to the original... it's simply better at what the whole save-versus-X system set out to do.

If what bothers you is the WoWification, then the big place to focus your attention is on the powers system. You could, if you were very very good at design, retask the powers system into something where all of the martial classes went back to different types of "at-will" attacks, balanced only by their situational applicability versus risk versus effectiveness; retask the spells and some of the prayers into spell lists like before, keeping the "prayers" which don't fit (like many of the Paladin's melee attacks, among others) as more like the martial reworking.

But it would be very annoying, very difficult, less elegant, and much more limited.

My initial impressions of the game were that it was extremely changed. But I gave it a chance, and I came away impressed. Many of the things it sets out to do are things which earlier editions tried to do, too... and it simply does them better.

DMing this edition, for example... it's pure pleasure. When I use the 4e DM guidelines to build a "very difficult" challenge, nine times out of ten it knocks half to all of the PC unconsicous at some point during the fight, exhausts their resources, and leaves them desperate. And I can prep that encounter in half an hour; I'm just spending an XP budget on monsters and letting my imagination race. This only works because of the extremely careful math they've done behind the scenes, which assures that a monster of level X is balanced in such-and-such way against a PC of level Y. Break the math and you break that ease.

Your goals are good... but you've been listening too much to gripes about this edition, and to your own first impressions. Give it a shake as written, first; I think you'll find it much more akin to your memories, minus the bad parts, than you expect.

[BobTheNob]

Honestly, the "Wow" ifaction isnt as nasty as it seems on the surface. I stopped playing D7D and found refuge in Wow for a couple of years. After my intervention I got back into D&D and picked up the 4th edition books. Our group got back together and started playing.

Now, from a guy who has been in both worlds let me asure you....its not as wow as you might think. It is very tactical, but thats not a bad thing. Its a little less about the numbers and a little more about rewarding players for thinking out the combat (at least our game is). (p.s. positioning is all important in combat. Cannot do this system justice without a good map and a way of tracking positions and player variables)

The whole "role" thing tends to blur away. Our "tank" does really good damage, our "healer" (leader) can heal and cast damaging spelss in the same round (therefore, is not "just" a healer). Our strikers can "control" and out controllers can "strike". Take the classes "role" as suggestion, not obligation. Its very easy to find ways to morph characters and transcend roles.

It is also "flatter" in terms of character growth. One of my key gripes about preiovus additions was the ease with which you could cram numbers into super-nova proportions and make combat scenarios essentially irrelevent or impossible to develop for group dynamics. Its much harder in 4th ed, most of the time investment only allows an edge as opposed to game ending (Note : There are still some cheeseball feats/power/builds that exist and rock the apple cart. Search the forums for entries with pages of response...you will find them)

My advice overall would be to try the 4th edition flavour before assuming you wont like it. You never know, it might work for you