4e Fan Creations and House RulesWorking on variant powers? Statting up a PC race or your version of a monster? Creating or converting an adventure? Put it here!
Personally, I think I'd like BRV to work as follows:
Battlerage Vigor:
Once per round when you make an attack, you may treat that attack as Invigorating. If you're already attacking with an Invigorating power, you gain double the normal temporary hit points on a hit.
If you have temp hp, you deal +1 damage with all melee attacks. If you're wearing chainmail or lighter armor, this bonus increases to +2.
Why?
* Completely removes any really broken things like temp hp stacking and immunity to low damage attacks.
* Simplifies things immensely
* Gives the enemy a reason to burn through their temp hp, because it removes their damage bonus, rather than a reason _not_ to attack them
* Makes their combat challenge and opportunity attacks more powerful via either allowing them to pick up temp hp if they missed during their turn or deal increased damage from the temp hp they already got
And it's still immensely powerful and encourages Invigorating attacks.
Hmm... that could work... but what about multiple attacks? Do those temp hit points stack or do you eliminate the stacking of temp hit points from the class altogether?
Before limiting it, consider whether you really need to. Remember, it doesn't really matter to a specific game whether an item can hypothetically be broken, it matters whether its actually broken by an actual character in your specific game.
1. Battlerager Vigor tends to break when you get a character who pumps his constitution specifically to pump the vigor ability (14 strength, 20 constitution dwarf brv fighter, etc). When a character uses a relatively normal build (18 strength, 14 or 16 constitution), it is much less broken.
2. Battlerager Vigor is frontloaded, as are most abilities which are scaled to an ability score mod and nothing else. At level 1, a character with a relatively normal battlerager vigor fighter will be soaking 2 to 3 points of damage per hit. This is pretty significant when your enemies are dealing 1d6+1 damage. Now fast forwards to level 10. This character is now soaking 3 to 4 points of damage, but his enemies are dealing 1d10+5 damage. He began soaking about 75% of the damage per hit, and now he's soaking about 30%. This ratio will continue to fall as the character advances in level.
3. Battlerager Vigor breaks most consistently in battles with lots of melee only minions. There are other reasons besides Battlerager Vigor that battles against mostly (or nothing but) melee only minions are poor ideas. At mid heroic tier or so, you can expect battles of this type to end extremely quickly, with or without a BRV fighter. At paragon tier, such battles can be almost an afterthought. The number of area of effect attacks that target only enemies grows as you advance in level to the point where large mobs of minions become speedbumps to many parties. So the ability to exploit this sort of encounter is perhaps not a major problem, given that this sort of encounter is most likely going to be exploited with or without a brv fighter.
So... basically, I wouldn't worry about things unless you've got a character starting with more than a 16 constitution, and unless you intend to play only at low levels. I do wish that Vigor weren't so frontloaded, but it is, and changing it can be obnoxious (and result in changes that are unnecessary at higher levels), so I probably wouldn't bother.
Don't mean to be rude but I don't even understand that solution let alone think it's simpler or a fix.
Are you referring to the solution where they only get temporary hit points from attacks which cause them to lose real hit points? (and only as many as they lost).
1. Battlerager Vigor tends to break when you get a character who pumps his constitution specifically to pump the vigor ability (14 strength, 20 constitution dwarf brv fighter, etc). When a character uses a relatively normal build (18 strength, 14 or 16 constitution), it is much less broken.
18 Constitution seems like a pretty normal build for a Con-based fighter. Buy 16 Str/Con and take a race with a +2 to Con (Dwarf/Goliath).
Quote:
2. Battlerager Vigor is frontloaded, as are most abilities which are scaled to an ability score mod and nothing else. At level 1, a character with a relatively normal battlerager vigor fighter will be soaking 2 to 3 points of damage per hit. This is pretty significant when your enemies are dealing 1d6+1 damage. Now fast forwards to level 10. This character is now soaking 3 to 4 points of damage, but his enemies are dealing 1d10+5 damage. He began soaking about 75% of the damage per hit, and now he's soaking about 30%. This ratio will continue to fall as the character advances in level.
A fighter who starts with 16 Con and takes the Improved Vigor feat will have his temp HP scale pretty well against monster damage.
The "normal damage expression" in the DMG is about 6+0.6*level (using this for convenience). Though this character can start out with temp HP=60% of level 1's "approximate normal damage" (if he has the Improved Vigor feat) and it quickly declines below 50% (level 4), it never gets below 40% for more than a level at a time and stays around 40-47% for almost his entire career. If you assume he takes Improved Vigor at level 4, the ability is actually slightly worse on average at levels 1-3 than it is over the rest of his career.
Of course, BRV far more powerful in the hands of an 18-Con Dwarf who takes both Improved Vigor and Dwarven Stoneblood.
I love minions and battlerager vigor and currently my players tend to not build ultra optimized characters so I am looking ahead and investigating...
If you tie brv to an attack you break its style completely in my opinion.
My idea where you only get thp only when you lose actual real hit points from an attack is rather guaranteed to keep things under control.... no matter how high their brv ability is or how great or minimal their opposition... no matter how many times they get hit because until they lose thp they dont normally lose real hp (see alternate critical hit option) until they lose real hp they dont gain thp... it is self policing. And dwarven stoneblood and improved vigor just stretch out the time between gaining more thp.
My idea where you only get thp only when you lose actual real hit points from an attack is rather guaranteed to keep things under control.... no matter how high their brv ability is or how great or minimal their opposition... no matter how many times they get hit because until they lose thp they dont normally lose real hp (see alternate critical hit option) until they lose real hp they dont gain thp... it is self policing. And dwarven stoneblood and improved vigor just stretch out the time between gaining more thp.
This idea only guarantees that a Battlerager will take some damage from repeated attacks. If a Battlerager is being attacked by enemies who do more damage on a hit than his BRV temp HP, it doesn't limit the ability at all (though it might dissuade him from using Invigorating powers on top of that to some extent).
It also has some weird effects, like a Battlerager who gets 4 temp HP being more vulnerable to minions that do 4 damage than minions that do 5 damage.
Last edited by Elric; 29th June 2009 at 05:39 PM..
If you tie brv to an attack you break its style completely in my opinion.
The inherent problem with the 'when I'm attacked' model is that it's anti-role - he's encouraging his enemies not to actually fight him. It also heavily impacts on the DM in unpleasant ways, dictating what types of attacks or even what types of creatures to use.
The 'only when you take actual damage' was my first suggestion, but it's overly complex for a lot of players, creates some odd cases (like the one Elric just mentioned, or for multiattack creatures like hydras), and still has that problem, which is why I looked towards another solution.
Quote:
is rather guaranteed to keep things under control...
Well, it's guaranteed to prevent the situation in which minions can never harm the battlerager, ever, but it doesn't deal with the 'I ended the combat at 35 temp hp, now I choose to not short rest' problem which is another part of the equation. Also, a BRV who gets 7 temp hp per whack attacked by things that do 8 (or 4) is still nigh invulnerable.
Fwiw, I have a BRV in a LFR campaign I'm running... and it's very common for enemies to just begin ignoring him. Last session I crit him for 29 and he took 4 damage, because he already has 25 temp from the previous combat... at which point he then acquired another 5 temp back.
The enemy blinked at him and dealt with other enemies for the rest of the combat, including leaving the fighter immobilized out of melee reach of anyone at one point because no one wanted to fight him.
This idea only guarantees that a Battlerager will take some damage from repeated attacks. If a Battlerager is being attacked by enemies who do more damage on a hit than his BRV temp HP, it doesn't limit the ability at all
If they are doing a bunch of damage all in one punch through his BRV then he is actually being hurt so the problem doesn't sound too much like a problem at that point?
And read the original expression of the rule I maxed the amount gained from brv based on the real hp loss taken (ignoring the feats) so if an attack is only 1 better than your current thp (you only get 1thp for next round)
Ahh I see your wierdness of 5 being less of a danger than 4 would occur
if I treat the feats the way I originally thought. It isnt an issue if they are just a part of the original thp gained is the minimum of brv rating or real hit point loss.
Last edited by Garthanos; 29th June 2009 at 10:11 PM..
That definitely seems to address the more egregious low damage input vs. temp hp gained imbalances and is a notable nerf on the more extreme 20 Con / Stoneblood type builds while it's going... I'd just really worry about it being too complex for many players.
Change the way it stacks invigorating temp too, and I'd probably no longer find BRV offensive at least. Just something complex for certain players only, like Vestige pact.
Also, a BRV who gets 7 temp hp per whack attacked by things that do 8 (or 4) is still nigh invulnerable.
Because of how I actually expressed it first ;-) As the maximum gainable by battlerager vigor was the amount of real hit points lost! ... he doesnt get 7 temp hit points unless he loses 7 real hitpoints.
Last edited by Garthanos; 29th June 2009 at 11:16 PM..
I'd just really worry about it being too complex for many players.
Well to be honest I find temporary hit points too complicated ;-), normal hitpoints should simply be allowed to go above your normal max until the end of the encounter.
Elrics idea of just implementing it as a (1 +Con/2) damage resistance IS indeed simpler as long as the BRV dont have to worry any more about archers than anyone else does ;-) I'd be game. The numbers for that work out rather similar with low end attacks but punishes you a lot more when taking high end damage as a fan of BRV I wouldnt like that much
I havent thought about somebody trying to keep thp between encounters... I assumed they ended when the DM decided the encounter did.
Last edited by Garthanos; 29th June 2009 at 10:54 PM..
Yeah, your version dealt with it - the idea of just making it only trigger when you take actual hp damage which I'd thought of myself weeks ago and seen in other places as well doesn't deal with it... otoh, is also a lot simpler. Meh.
Quote:
I havent thought about somebody trying to keep thp between encounters...
I do. He got up to 35 temp one adventure... he was 1st level at the time and only had something like 35 hp max. I'm not sure he took damage that adventure and there's a decent chance he could have solo-ed the entire adventure (not a great chance, but decent... three creatures would have been more seriously threatening, and oh god would he have damaged things slowly)
Ket, about the thp stacking with, BRV hit points gain restricted by the real damage you take. Doesnt seem like it would be a drop in the bucket... ie those other thp insulate you from getting the brv thp so why would it still be a problem?
I do. He got up to 35 temp one adventure... he was 1st level at the time and only had something like 35 hp max.
How the devil is he getting up to 35 THP?
THP's from Invigorating powers stack, the THP's that Battlerager Vigor grants when you're hit don't stack.
The only way he should be getting up to double-digit THP's is if you're hitting him 1) less than once per round, and 2) hitting him for less than his Con modifier.
Yeah, your version dealt with it - the idea of just making it only trigger when you take actual hp damage which I'd thought of myself weeks ago and seen in other places as well doesn't deal with it... otoh, is also a lot simpler. Meh.
Well expressed as "Temporary hit point gain from any attack is limited to the maximum real hit point loss from the attack." is fairly easy to say..
But it does in practice mean noting the real hitpoint loss from an attack is less than your brv and using that as the thp you gain next round... Ignoring your battlerager vigor when you are just loosing temp hit points will become easy.
Regarding Roles and BRV.
It isnt a don't attack me defense until your adversary starts noticing you arent slowing down... which occurs with the regeneration fighter powers too and seems like a rather subtle defense compared to my attacks just bounce off his armor! which is the in your face normal defense of fighters I dont think I get the role argument. .. if he doesnt deliver enough damage so they think its ok to ignore the man who wont fall down, cause he isnt hurting us.. that is I think a build issue... not enough offense in the equation.
Yeah, your version dealt with it - the idea of just making it only trigger when you take actual hp damage which I'd thought of myself weeks ago and seen in other places as well doesn't deal with it... otoh, is also a lot simpler. Meh.
Well expressed as "Temporary hit point gain from any attack is limited to the maximum real hit point loss from the attack." is fairly easy to say..
But it does in practice mean noting the real hitpoint loss from an attack is less than your brv and using that as the thp you gain next round... Ignoring your battlerager vigor when you are just loosing temp hit points will become easy.
Regarding Roles and BRV.
It isnt a don't attack me defense until your adversary starts noticing you arent slowing down... which occurs with the regeneration fighter powers too and seems like a rather subtle defense compared to my attacks just bounce off his armor! which is the in your face normal defense of fighters I dont think I get the role argument. .. if he doesnt deliver enough damage so they think its ok to ignore the man who wont fall down, cause he isnt hurting us.. that is I think a build issue... not enough offense in the equation.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
