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It just occurred to me that one of the biggest problems I'm seeing with the battlerager in this discussion is the linking of the ability to Constitution.
I was starting to think that too I was also thinking that the dwarven stone blood feature needed to be paragon.
For some reason my brain just appended the concept to your idea sorry for the miss-attribution your idea apparently made me think of the simpler method ie using damage resistance.
That's fine. I was thinking of suggesting an option with BRV granting resistance. I try to suggest house rules that are small changes wherever possible. However, BRV is incredibly complicated, so the usual argument that small change house rules are better because they keep things simple doesn't have much force.
Quote:
The consistancy of not worrying if the damage is ranged or not is good to my thinking as well... and a perk for the DM and character alike.
The proposal you quote only gives the BRV Resistance against melee/close attacks. I remove the restriction of needing temp HP to get the BRV's bonus damage, though (which means that you don't have to worry as much about ranged attackers). If you want BRV to give resistance to all attacks (this includes ongoing damage, which becomes more and more common at higher levels), you probably want to tone down the maximum amount of Resistance you can get.
For example, you could do this by taking my previous proposal and reducing the Resistance added by the feats.
Battlerager Vigor: You gain Resistance (1+ Con mod) / 2, minimum 1.
When wearing no armor, light armor, or chainmail, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks. This bonus increases to +2 if you’re wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.
Feats:
Improved Vigor: Change the sentence on Battlerager Vigor to “If you have the Battlerager Vigor class feature and are 11th level or higher, increase the Resistance it grants by 1 (2 at 21st level or higher)
Dwarven Stoneblood: Change to a Paragon feat: “Add one half your Constitution modifier to the Resistance granted by your Battlerager Vigor. This does not stack with the Improved Vigor feat.” Note that doing the calculation out shows that a character with Dwarven Stoneblood gets Resistance from Battlerager Vigor equal to his Constitution modifier.
Compared to the previous proposal, this one is even easier to run because the Resistance applies to all attacks. I reduced the Resistance that Improved Vigor grants by 1 per tier and made it not stack with Dwarven Stoneblood.
That's fine. I was thinking of suggesting an option with BRV granting resistance. I try to suggest house rules that are small changes wherever possible. However, BRV is incredibly complicated, so the usual argument that small change house rules are better because they keep things simple doesn't have much force.
I agree I am rather loyal to the raw, so prefer making changes subtle and maintaining connection to the original rules... I also like offering alternatives and temptations.
Note as Damage Resistance it would reduce damage (before you take temporary hit point loss) so it is more powerful in that fashion in effect it combines with thp from invigorating, combine that with being agnostic about range of damage source and we have something to explain to somebody who likes BRV and feels it is being gimped too much
Perhaps it is more "I am immune to pain you know scars come in handy for something... been doing this so long my muscles dont recognize fatigue much either, the captain says I dont look out for my hide well enough anymore but I do hit hard."
Easier to visualize it as a grizzled soldier effect different than BRV eh ;-)
though brv could be skinned that way too I am sure...
The less armour you wear, the more of a thrill battle is for you 'cause you're copping hits more often.
It's really the same , different smell.
Completely disconnected with level mechanincally weird or did I miss something.. And ... flavor almost invokes, Ancient sky clad Celts and War Witches, running on adrenaline rage weird.
Nothing wrong with weird.. smelly is usually bad though.
If an enemy damages you with a melee or close attack, you may gain <the normal amount> of temporary hp
(as an immediate reaction)
(at the start of your next turn)
(at the end of your next turn)
If you want to change it to 1/round, pick one of the above - deals with immunity to many minions, though one is still screwed (but, really, that's okay).
Completely disconnected with level mechanincally weird or did I miss something.. And ... flavor almost invokes, Ancient sky clad Celts and War Witches, running on adrenaline rage weird.
Not at all. By having magical plusses boost it, it's tied indirectly to level and masterwork armours are also level-based.
How about just this 1 idea.... for BRV only real hitpoint damage induces thp.
Maximum temporary hitpoints gained equals the real hitpoint loss of the last attack or the characters con mod whichever is lower (improved vigor bonus only occurs if you get thp and may increase it above that limit.)
I really like this idea, but with one additional twist: you get temporary hit points equal to half the real hit point loss, to a maximum of Constitution modifier plus all the other adjustments from feats, etc. This way, you lose a little something with every hit even if you are always attacked by minions.
I really like this idea, but with one additional twist: you get temporary hit points equal to half the real hit point loss, to a maximum of Constitution modifier plus all the other adjustments from feats, etc. This way, you lose a little something with every hit even if you are always attacked by minions.
calculating half real hit point loss all the time might kill Kzach and I think I see a couple others around the room falling over twitching heheheh.... not sure the gain is work the havoc. ;-)
1 issue we are running in to is that brv really is a better option than what one gives up in order to take it. A factor there doesnt seem a good way to fix except increasing what one gives up.
Note Kzach by tying it to the invert of your armor is saying you have to give up the high end armor if you want the benefit you cant be feeling all cozy in a shell, you have to have the risk ...with blood pumping and all.
The oddity of your magic armor feeding in to it... is kind of jarring though. Perhaps it is like the warriors who over time learns to make their weapons a part of them.
Last edited by Garthanos; 1st July 2009 at 03:25 PM..
That's fine. I was thinking of suggesting an option with BRV granting resistance.
I figured it out.. Eric Finley,said he changed it to a resistance but my brain said if you change it to resistance you would have to gimp it some way and that had mixed nicely with you saying using (1 + CON mod)/2 minimum 1. (and um Elric vs Eric)
Last edited by Garthanos; 1st July 2009 at 03:26 PM..
The oddity of your magic armor feeding in to it... is kind of jarring though. Perhaps it is like the warriors who over time learns to make their weapons a part of them.
I haven't crunched the numbers. I was waiting for y'all to do that for me
If an enemy damages you with a melee or close attack, you may gain <the normal amount> of temporary hp
(as an immediate reaction)
(at the start of your next turn)
(at the end of your next turn)
If you want to change it to 1/round, pick one of the above - deals with immunity to many minions, though one is still screwed (but, really, that's okay).
Using the lesser of real hit point loss or <the normal amount> without any other changes already allows even 1 minion to eventually get through if he lasts long enough and multiple ones to get through proportionately faster (because of more attacks), shrug.
I haven't crunched the numbers. I was waiting for y'all to do that for me
I am a concept cruncher and number absorber... It isnt that Con goes up fast.. its that it tends to start too high with people wanting to optimise for this build in some ways that is ok. (Remember because it is tied to CON it means they dont pump points in to a DEX based armor class. ) Your adjusted BRV'ers would be high AC by a different route they would stick it in to DEX, because they dont need to put it in to con I think.
heh, what if you just penalize for armor after all is said and done that is the trade in question. Cloth = normal, leather = -1, hide -2, chain -3, scale -4, plate -5.
Note that means if they dont do heavy armor and instead do a light armor... they have another place they will need to soak points for getting armor class... so likely there con will have to be lower though I am picturing a horribly over defensive low strength character with (high dex and high con).
Negatives include : Its entirely a gimping effect (although appropriate) .. another they have to optimize to have a heavy armor brv and we might want to rethink the numbers with the boosting feats.
Last edited by Garthanos; 1st July 2009 at 06:32 PM..
I am a concept cruncher and number absorber... It isnt that Con goes up fast.. its that it tends to start too high with people wanting to optimise for this build in some ways that is ok. (Remember because it is tied to CON it means they dont pump points in to a DEX based armor class. ) Your adjusted BRV'ers would be high AC by a different route they would stick it in to DEX, because they dont need to put it in to con I think.
This just made me realise that we're going about this the wrong way; we're finding solutions and then trying to make them balanced.
Instead, we should be working out what is a balanced and reasonable amount of THP to gain throughout the levels that keeps the class interesting and yet doesn't overshadow the other build choices.
It would seem that we've identified all the key issues, so first we should probably try to collate them as a reference. I'll try and put a few out there to start:
Strength should be the primary stat and they shouldn't have a motivation for it not to be.
Con should be the secondary stat and they shouldn't have a motivation for it not to be.
Minions need to be a threat, not a speed-bump.
Needs to maintain the feel of an adrenaline-charged defender.
Should scale appropriately throughout the levels. Highs and lows are ok, but it should never be so powerful that it's a no-brainer choice or weak that it's not a contender.
Solve the issue of out of combat THP stacking.
EDIT: Hmm, this made me think of another possible solution: scaling the amount of THP to the threat. Minions are a low-level of threat so they don't get much benefit against them, standard creatures are a medium level threat so they get a medium level of THP, etc.
This just made me realise that we're going about this the wrong way; we're finding solutions and then trying to make them balanced.
Instead, we should be working out what is a balanced and reasonable amount of THP to gain throughout the levels that keeps the class interesting and yet doesn't overshadow the other build choices.
It would seem that we've identified all the key issues, so first we should probably try to collate them as a reference. I'll try and put a few out there to start:
Strength should be the primary stat and they shouldn't have a motivation for it not to be.
That might mean we need to use some strength for effects associated with the battlerager... ie perhaps bursts of damage dealing that require spending temporary hit points. (a reason not to sit around with thp) and note this could replace the continuous bonus damage from having BRV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kzach
Con should be the secondary stat and they shouldn't have a motivation for it not to be.
creating a maximum thp you can stack based on CON, instead of making them non-stackable or making the rate based on thp. The rate of THP gain might be too easily out of control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kzach
Minions need to be a threat, not a speed-bump.
They dont need to be much of a threat... immunity is just unacceptable.and having thp gained only based on the real hitpoints lost does enable them to provide some threat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kzach
Needs to maintain the feel of an adrenaline-charged defender.
Should scale appropriately throughout the levels. Highs and lows are ok, but it should never be so powerful that it's a no-brainer choice or weak that it's not a contender.
Solve the issue of out of combat THP stacking.
EDIT: Hmm, this made me think of another possible solution: scaling the amount of THP to the threat. Minions are a low-level of threat so they don't get much benefit against them, standard creatures are a medium level threat so they get a medium level of THP, etc.
Well the only measure of threat I can think of that has any reasonable garantee would be real hit points lost....
I think I have ulterior motives for wanting BRV balanced solidly.
I want BRV under control in part because I want to do even more with it. . Same with adjusting minions... I like them a lot the way they are, but feel like my wanting more means I need to be sure where I am starting from is balanced.
Another BRV enhancement feat idea which I have no idea of how to balance unless brv itself is fairly under control....I called
Empowered Empathy. You gain BRV temporary hitpoints when a nearby ally loses real hitpoints.
The feat is actually thought of as a racial feat, connnected with BRV, might be appropriate to Deva - angelic connection to other beings concept. Or it might be appropriate for a race who is so hearty they rarely fear their own death (errrr maybe warforged or shifters with regen?).
Last edited by Garthanos; 2nd July 2009 at 02:11 PM..
Say, fighter hits 80% of the time and gains 5 temp HP each time. The monster hits 10% of the time and does 10 damage each time. So the fighter gains 4 expected temp HP per round and only loses 1.
However, this type of situation seems rare. You'd have to be using awfully weak monsters.
That should be *really* rare. Given that they're wearing Chain, a BRV fighter should be being hit with roughly the same % rate that he hits his targets. Also, if there are 2-3 enemies swinging at him, he won't have a chance to build a bunch of THP via Crushing Surge.
Also, if he's swinging with Crushing Surge every turn to get the TempHP, that means he's *not* getting the extra damage he'd be getting with either Cleave or Reaping Strike.
The errata is very close to my suggestion - invigorating on the miss instead of double is probably a smarter idea, and I still am not a fan of all this advocating hammers and axes things as part of the class, but eh.
One quick note - I'm not hugely concerned about the exact value of a resistance. But I'm not clear on why you'd have to gimp it, for one reason and one reason alone... it allows you to completely dispense with the concept of stacking THPs. Ever. That sentence is simply omitted from my version of the feature (and, if I'm reading him right, from Elric's as well).
So our BRV fighter occasionally uses Crushing Surge for the THPs, but mostly she doesn't bother... because Resist 4 is sufficient, especially by comparison to the others in the party, all of whom are pretty squishy. Basically, she actually has less incentive to use Invigorating powers than others would, not more, because they become somewhat redundant. It's a rare round where she needs the extra damage soak more than she needs the disgusting accuracy/damage boost on Brash Strike.
The errata is very close to my suggestion - invigorating on the miss instead of double is probably a smarter idea, and I still am not a fan of all this advocating hammers and axes things as part of the class, but eh.
So, yeah, problem solved. Go home?
Well the axe hammer thing I can live without too.. heavy weapons seems sufficient. Have an errata link?
. Same with adjusting minions... I like them a lot the way they are, but feel like my wanting more means I need to be sure where I am starting from is balanced.
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