Class Switching the Role of classes with minor tweaks?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Here is an idea I head before - It seems that some classes get their role most prominently by getting class features specific to it and not so much with individual powers.

So, for which classes might this work?

Here is an idea for the Fighter:
Replace Combat Challenge, Weapon Talent and Combat Superiority with the following versions:

Combat Challenge
When you hit an opponent with an attack, you can challenge him. Until you choose a different target, you gain a +1 bonus to all attack rolls against that target.

Weapon Talent
Pick either One Handed or Two-Handed Weapon mastery.
o One Handed Weapon: You gain a damage bonus with all one handed weapons.
o Two Handed Weapon Mastery: You gain a damage bonus with all two-handed weapons.

The damage bonus depends on the weapon group of the weapon. If the weapon has more than one group, choose the better of the weapons.
Axe, Hammer, Mace or Pick: Add your constitution bonus to damage.
Flail, Heavy Blade, Light Blade or Spear: Add your dexterity bonus to damage.
Polearm, Staff, Unarmed: Add your wisdom bonus to damage.
Increase these bonuses by +2 at 11th level and by +4 at 21st level.

Combat Superiority
You may add your Wisdom bonus to defense against all opportunity attacks.

[Bronze_Dragon]

Cool ideas; I really like the changes. However, I'd disagree with you that class features are what make a class the role it is. The powers often show what type of role the class is; many defender powers are gimped compared to striker powers, in my opinion, since that isn't their focus. Also, other basic things such as amount of health gained per level, equipment proficiencies, and feats all nudge the role of the class to what it currently is. These changes would probably work for the fighter, and make the fighter a hybrid striker/defender, but I don't think they'll have as great of an effect as you think they will.

[Flipguarder]

A problem i see is that some classes simply don't work well for this idea. For instance the earthstrength warden is a defender, secondary controller. But if you attempt to modify it into a controller, he lacks the range necessary to perform the task reasonably. And if you try to make him a striker his powers simply don't do enough damage to work. He can't be a leader without significant power and class feature changes.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Flipguarder

A problem i see is that some classes simply don't work well for this idea. For instance the earthstrength warden is a defender, secondary controller. But if you attempt to modify it into a controller, he lacks the range necessary to perform the task reasonably. And if you try to make him a striker his powers simply don't do enough damage to work. He can't be a leader without significant power and class feature changes.

Oh, I agree. It doesn't work for every class. Probably not even the most. But it might for some. (Maybe "some" is merely Fighter and Swordmage. Those are the classes I have some basic ideas so far )

[Saeviomagy]

I'd watch giving the fighter extra damage-boosting striker powers. They're already pretty potent in the striker role, and they only really lack mobility.

The next problem is this: one of the big things that defenders have is lots of hitpoints and surges. So you'd probably need to work on those to make any striker a defender, and they should probably be reduced if you're turning a defender into a striker (or just don't boost mobility and assume that they soak OAs into their surges/hps).

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Saeviomagy

I'd watch giving the fighter extra damage-boosting striker powers. They're already pretty potent in the striker role, and they only really lack mobility.

The next problem is this: one of the big things that defenders have is lots of hitpoints and surges. So you'd probably need to work on those to make any striker a defender, and they should probably be reduced if you're turning a defender into a striker (or just don't boost mobility and assume that they soak OAs into their surges/hps).

Hmm. I already thought about reducing the healing surges and hit points. That was a logical choice. But the mobility aspect you bring up is interesting. Combat Superiority (in the Striker Redux version) already helps there, but generally there is probably a lack of "move and strike" and "resist movement hindering abilities" in the Fighters repertoire. Maybe a new class feature is required:
Combat Mobility
Once per turn you can reroll a save or an athletics check to resist an effect that slows, immobilizes or restrains you, or ignore the first square of difficult terrain you enter during your turn.

[keterys]

Well, Pass Forward, (the minor move 3 to get adjacent to an enemy one), Passing Attack, Tempest Dance, etc all have some mobility.

My bigger concern is that you're basing it on a stat, so that means that he'll deal more damage than the ranger (who only gets his damage once per round) on multiple attack situations. Similar to comparing warlocks and sorcerers, really.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by keterys

Well, Pass Forward, (the minor move 3 to get adjacent to an enemy one), Passing Attack, Tempest Dance, etc all have some mobility.

My bigger concern is that you're basing it on a stat, so that means that he'll deal more damage than the ranger (who only gets his damage once per round) on multiple attack situations. Similar to comparing warlocks and sorcerers, really.

Design by Symmetry on my side. The reason I did it this way was because I didn't want "Hunter's Quarry II" or "Sneak Attack II", and so the logical result was that the damage bonus by secondary ability score.

A possibly limitation one could add might be to limit the damage bonus only against one target, like the Monks Flurry of Blows.

[keterys]

Yeah - I mean, I actually like the flexible stat choice based on weapon and think it works great for the class. And I kinda wish, say, warlocks didn't work the way they do.

But it's worth bringing up as a possible problem

[Saeviomagy]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

Combat Mobility
Once per turn you can reroll a save or an athletics check to resist an effect that slows, immobilizes or restrains you, or ignore the first square of difficult terrain you enter during your turn.

That's not really the mobility that's a problem. I don't think fighters really get significantly fewer ways to deal with these sort of situations than existing strikers do. I was purely thinking in terms of OAs, and your "add wisdom mod vs OA" covers the mobility that a striker fighter might need.

My first point was that I think you're not giving the base fighter enough credit for the damage he can deal, and that boosting that further is dangerous.

My second point was that they have too much survivability: they should either retain their current surges and hitpoints OR get the wisdom-to-OA bonus, not both.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Weapon Master
Class Traits
Role: Striker. Your mastery of your weapon allows you to deal precise and powerful strikes against your foes.
Power Source: Martial. You have become a master of combat through endless hours of practice, determination, and your own sheer physical toughness.
Key Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, Constitution
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather, Hide, Chainmail, Scale, Heavy Shields, Light Shields
Weapon Proficiencies: simple melee, military melee, simple ranged, military ranged
Bonus to Defense: +2 Fortitude
Hit Points at 1st level: 12 + Constitution Score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 7 + Constitution Modifier
Trained Skills: Choose 3 trained skills at 1st level
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Endurance, Heal, History, Intimidate, Streetwise

Class Features

Combat Challenge
When you hit a foe with a melee or close attack, you can choose to challenge him. While challenged, you gain a +1 bonus to attacks against that foe. You can only challenge one foe at a time and keep him challenged until you choose to challenge a different foe.
At 11th level, you can challenge a second foe.
At 21st level, you can challenge a third foe.

Weapon Talent
Choose one weapon group you are particularly well trained in. You gain a bonus to damage rolls against your challenged foe once per round if you hit with an attack against him.
Axe, Hammer, Mace, Pick, Staff: Add your Constitution Bonus to the damage.
Flail, Heavy Blade, Light Blade, Spear: Add your Dexterity Bonus to the damage.
Polearm,Unarmed: Add your Wisdom Bonus to the damage.

Combat Superiority
You gain a bonus to defense against opportunity attacks equal to your Wisdom modifier.

----

Feats

Adaptable Weapon Mastery
Prerequisite: Half-Elf or Human, Weapon Master, Weapon Talent
After each short or extended rest, pick one melee weapon in your possession. You can change the weapon group your Weapon Talent feature applies to the group of that weapon as if you had retrained your Weapon Talent feature to a different weapon group.

Combat Mobility
Prerequisite: Weapon Master, Combat Superiority, Dex 13+
You gain a +2 feat bonus to all saves against effects that slow, immobilize or restrain you. You also gain a +2 feat bonus to all Athletics and Acrobatics checks to escape a grab.

Exotic Weapon Master
Prerequisite: Weapon master, Weapon Talent, Dex 13+
Pick a Weapon Group you have the Weapon Talent in. You are proficient with all superior weapons in this Weapon Group.

Focused Weapon Mastery
Prerequisite: Weapon Master, Weapon Talent. Con 13+
Pick one specific weapon in the weapon group you have Weapon Talent with.
Add +1 to the damage bonus from Weapon Talent with that weapon. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level. When you retrain your Weapon Talent, you can also retrain the weapon you picked for this feat.

Punishing Superiority
Prerequisite: Weapon Master, Combat Superiority, Wis 13+
When you are targeted by a opportunity attack, you can choose to not apply the bonus to defense granted against opportunity attack. If the opportunity attack hits, you can challenge the foe and gain a bonus to damage with melee and close attack against the target equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Versatile Weapon Master
Prerequisite: Weapon Master, Weapon Talent, Dex 13+
Pick one additional weapon group for your Weapon Talent feature. If a weapon is in both groups, you can pick the higher ability modifier to determine bonus damage from your ability. You cannot add both.

Watchful Challenge
Prerequisite: Weapon Master, Combat Challenge, Wis 13+
You gain a +1 bonus to AC against a creature you have challenged with your Combat Challenge. If you are wearing a shield, you also gain this bonus to Reflex defense.

[Nifft]

In this case, it seems to work, but that's because Fighters were already minoring in the Striker role. Fighter powers were already high-damage.

Try to turn the Fighter into a Leader. Then I think you'll see that the power list actually does matter.

Cheers, -- N

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by Nifft

In this case, it seems to work, but that's because Fighters were already minoring in the Striker role. Fighter powers were already high-damage.

Try to turn the Fighter into a Leader. Then I think you'll see that the power list actually does matter.

Cheers, -- N

Yes. It was never my intention to prove that as a general case.

It's even more obvious if you look at a class like the Wizard. Without creating new powers, you won't turn him into a Defender, Leader or Striker.

[keterys]

Eh, it wouldn't be that hard to do the wizard into a striker. Glance at the warlock and sorcerer to get some hints on where to start, after all.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Originally Posted by keterys

Eh, it wouldn't be that hard to do the wizard into a striker. Glance at the warlock and sorcerer to get some hints on where to start, after all.

Well, you an probably turn every class into a Striker if you just add a feature: "deal +1d6 per tier extra damage with all attacks". The trick is reducing their overall abilities in their original role, too.

[keterys]

True, you'd probably have to disallow a few choice dailies that are far above others, and a couple of stupid wizard tricks... but overall you wouldn't have to take all that much away from the wizard on your way.

That's more a problem with the wizard features than anything else, though.

[Flipguarder]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

Well, you an probably turn every class into a Striker if you just add a feature: "deal +1d6 per tier extra damage with all attacks". The trick is reducing their overall abilities in their original role, too.

and the warden would get to level 30 with dailies that do 3[W] and +3d6 damage.

[keterys]

Originally Posted by Flipguarder

and the warden would get to level 30 with dailies that do 3[W] and +3d6 damage.

Glancing at the warden dailies real quickly, they could easily fit a striker. Add your primary stat as extra damage to all your attacks for the rest of the combat? 5W and +4 damage vs bloodied for the combat? Make two 2W attacks and take half damage from just over half of attacks for the combat? There are a bunch of others that are close bursts enemies only that at 3W+3d6 per enemy, plus the side effects (slides, daze, etc) would be respectable.

Course, I think it'd be easier to turn the warden into a controller, but hey.

[Nifft]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

Yes. It was never my intention to prove that as a general case.

It's even more obvious if you look at a class like the Wizard. Without creating new powers, you won't turn him into a Defender, Leader or Striker.

Darn it... now I want to do exactly that.

Supplemental Arcana: A Wizard chooses one of his secondary abilities -- Con, Dex, Wis or Cha -- to be his Supplemental Arcana (hereafter SupAr).

Defender: Your powers which impose a penalty to attack rolls are modified to not impose that penalty when the target's attack includes you. You can Mark targets you hit or miss with an attack (no action); your Mark lasts until the end of your next turn. You can expend your implement mastery encounter power as an interrupt to gain damage resist (all) equal to your SupAr against enemies subject to your Mark until the end of your next turn. You gain a Fighter's HP and surges/day.

Why this might work: it's a boring Mark, but it stacks with other penalties, making you one of the most effective de-buffers in the game -- unless they attack you, that is. Unlike other Defenders, you have a lot of area and ranged attacks, so you're actually encouraged to stay far from your allies. Thus, you need a bunch more HP.


Leader: Your close and area powers do not harm allies. You can expend your implement mastery encounter power as a free action to heal allies in the area of an at-will or encounter attack hp equal to your SupAr. You can expend a daily power as a free action to allow each ally in the area of an at-will or encounter attack to spend a healing surge, plus regain hp equal to your SupAr + 1d6 per 5 levels over 1st (so +1d6 at 6th level, max +5d6 at level 26+).

Why this might work: eating daily attack powers to fuel mass healing may be a boring use for them, but the "nova" healing is similar but opposite to the "nova" damage a regular Wizard pulls out with his daily attacks. All three "leader" features encourage taking, and conserving, big area attacks.


Striker: You may spend a Minor action to add your SupAr to the damage of the next attack you make this turn. You can expend your implement mastery encounter power as a free action to add +1d10 damage to an at-will or encounter attack power that hits (11th level +2d10 damage, 21st level +3d10 damage). +1 healing surge.

Why this might work: consumes the same resource as the Controller's best daily powers, so encourages non-sustain dailies.


Balanced versions: replace Implement Mastery encounter powers entirely.

Cheers, -- N

[Dire Human]

Infernal Warlock as a Defender

Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution Score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges Per Day: 9


Shadow Form: An infernal warlock loses shadow walk. Instead, you can use your Constitution modifier instead of your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier when determining your AC. Also, you gain a +1 bonus to AC when wearing light armor, or a +3 bonus if you have your off-hand free (not carrying a shield, an off-hand weapon, a two-handed weapon, or anything else).


Eldritch Strike: An infernal warlock gains eldritch strike as an at-will power in place of eldritch blast, and instead gains eldritch blast as a class feature; see below.

Eldritch Strike, Warlock (All) Attack 1
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. AC
Hit: 1[w] + Constitution modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.
Increase damage to 2[w] + Constitution modifier at 21st level.
Special: This power counts as a melee basic attack.


Warlock’s Curse
Once per turn as a minor action, you can place a Warlock’s Curse on the enemy nearest to you that you can see. A cursed enemy is more susceptible to your will. If you attack a cursed enemy, you mark the target whether you hit or miss.

A Warlock’s Curse remains in effect until the end of the encounter or until the cursed enemy drops to 0 hit points or fewer.

You can place a Warlock’s Curse on multiple targets over the course of an encounter; each curse requires the use of a minor action. You can’t place a Warlock’s Curse on a creature that is already affected by your or another character’s Warlock’s Curse.

In addition, whenever a cursed enemy that you have marked makes an attack that does not include you, you can use eldritch blast against that enemy as an immediate interrupt.

Eldritch Blast, Warlock (All) Attack 1
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d10 + Constitution modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2d10 + Constitution modifier at 21st level.


Dark One’s Blessing: You have the Dark One’s Blessing pact boon. You instantly gain vitality from a cursed enemy when that enemy falls.

When an enemy under your Warlock’s Curse is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, you immediately gain temporary hit points equal to your level.


Hellish Vitality: You know the hellish vitality at-will spell.

Hellish Vitality, Warlock (Infernal) Attack 1
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Fire, Implement
Standard Action Ranged 5
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d6 + Constitution modifier fire damage. If you take damage before the end of your next turn, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier after the damage is resolved.
Increase damage to 2d6 + Constitution modifier and the temporary hit points to twice your Constitution modifier at 21st level.