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This coming sunday i am going to start the scales of war campaign with my regular group of players. My players are not really into role playing and some don't grasp the rules as good as they should be after almost one year and a half of playing..
I am planning to change that coming campaign so i was thinking of creating a few house rules so it will be clear what i expect of them and they of me.
Off course i would not post here if i did not want advice, ideas and or feedback.
Here we go, in no particular order;
Your character does what you say he does. If you ignore DM hints that this can be bad for your character or it is not advised to proceed that way, you suffer the consequences.
As a player you will keep your mind on the table, keep an eye on everything what happens in combat so things don't have to be repeated all the time and so you know what you can do.
If the DM tells a read - aloud text, you will listen so you know your environment.
Each good role playing act / action will earn a mark. At the end of the night, 8 marks will obtain you a +10 % exp bonus of your total. Marks are told and judged by them DM, players will be acknowledged for good role playing.
There is no real bad role playing, but meta-gaming, not paying attention will cost you a mark, the DM judges this and will tell the reason.
Marks cannot go under a total of 0, higher than 8 will not be rewarded again.
People who are not present for a whole night, will gain -10% of total xp given.
As a player it is your duty to keep your sheet up to date.
As a player you will know your character and its abilities, you will ask if there are any uncertainties or things you don't understand.
I could be i forgot something.. so let me know will ya
If you have been playing with these people for a year and a half you must all know each other pretty well by now. Also, whatever their limitations they must enjoy playing in the group as it has lasted this long. This means that you are doing fine and they are happy.
To me it sounds like a group of casual people, comfortable playing a very social game, one where a 100% of the attention is not on what is happening in game and conversational tangents happen frequently. This might not be what you want, but this is what your players might find most entertaining and relaxing. Remember that different people have fun in different ways, maybe the actual game is not the most important thing to some of your players, maybe it is the social event.
If any of the above is vaguely true (it might not be!), then trying to formalise the game environment probably isn't the best approach. All it will do is make the game seem like work, work isn't fun, so the game isn't fun anymore. Instead of having a relaxed environment you will have a tense environment where you are mentally at odds with your players (you expect one thing, they expect another). In my opinion this will have a decent chance of destroying your players fun, and destroying the game.
If the social aspect of everyone getting together is an important factor for your group then why don't you think about separating the social event from the game? You could suggest alternating between D&D night and social night. This could be a subtle way of reinforcing the difference between playing the game and just hanging out....
....who knows, maybe some of your group will start to miss not playing every "session" and change their attitude?
They want to play.. that i know.. but maybe its just me.. but i get irritated about the fact they walk into something, triggering 4 OA's and than if i tell them that.. they back down and do something else.. This happens multiple times.. Same as not keeping there sheet up to date.. they give themselves a +6 to attack when it should be +7 or +8.. I tell this.. but they don't seem to realise they should need to adjust it..
It could be that like the more social out of game between the game itself.. but.. i just don't know..
It sounds like they're not very hardcore players. Having hardcore houserules isn't necessarily going to jive with that mentality. There are probably better ways to go about your goals.
In my opinion these aren't really hardcore rules..
They keep getting xp, only 10% less if they are not there for a evening, and 10% more if they do some good role play..
They won't get kicked out, i don't demand full atention, but enough they know what is happening at the table.. is that so weird? Even for a more social game, even if its more orientated at dice rolling?
One technique I like for holding the players attention better is called Active Defenses (back in Unearthed Arcana they called it players making all the rolls) ... because it feels like they are more "in the game" even when its not there turn they become more aware of the action.
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
I think its not likely that handing everyone this list will actually have any impact on what happens at the table. It may give the players the impression that the style of game you have all been playing isn't too satisfying to the DM, which may cause them some anxiety but its not likely to change their behavior.
In terms of getting them to pay better attention at the table the key elements are to keep up the momentum of the game and make sure each situation engages all of the players as much as possible. Create an adventure that is itself pretty tense. Maybe one with a bit of a horror kind of thing going. Monsters pop out of the dark and grab people unexpectedly, nasty stress traps, stuff like that. Most players will be paying attention when the party is in a bit of a crisis and they're fighting for their lives. Most combat encounters sort of do that, but the players get used to them after a while and the feeling of danger can start to ebb, at which point the game kind of gets to feel like playing monopoly.
Hone your story telling skills. Write up some detailed descriptions of the environment you can read off to the players, but don't give them all the details at once. As they explore you can tell them about a sound they here or vermin scattering away from the light of their torches, or a mysterious light or smell. It could be something that gives them foreshadowing of an encounter to come or may just be some mundane detail. When you spring an encounter on them sometimes have the party be surprised or have a trap spring and then monsters attack. Once in a while have something turn out in a very unexpected way, like someone they think they are going to talk to attacks them or does something strange. Obviously you want to work this stuff into the story line, but I expect you can do that.
Make sure combat is going fairly quickly. There are plenty of threads around with suggestions on ways to get rid of slowdowns in combat. When each character's turn takes 30 seconds the game has a much more fast paced feel to it. Make sure there are plenty of creative ways the players can interact with terrain and whatnot as well so their creative minds are engaged during encounters.
You may also want to use more skill challenges and open ended RP elements in your game if the players don't really seem to be too keen on doing a lot of fighting. As the DMG points out, there are different types of players who tend to get interested in different aspects of the game. Try some of the RP suggestions in DMG2. Let your players have some control of describing the whole world, like through their backgrounds they can add details to the campaign (DM of course will make sure this kind of stuff all fits together OK). You can do some of the things like vignettes where you allow the players to take the parts of some NPCs and play out some plot element that isn't directly related to the party but explains the story or shows them some aspect of the overall plot that will interest them. A dream sequence or flashback or prophetic vision can be interesting too.
As far as players that simply don't grasp the rules and aren't that good with keeping their sheets up to date or adding up their numbers there isn't a LOT you can do. You can only lead the horse to water, you can't make him drink. Maybe getting a DDI subscription and having them use Character Builder will help. It does all the number crunching for you and shows them all their choices for powers/feats/etc so they don't have to be experts with all the character generation related stuff.
As far as combat rules mastery, you may not be able to get some players to ever totally understand it simply because they don't really have a good brain for tactics and they don't find it interesting enough or it doesn't make enough sense to them to remember it all. You can try running some sort of "training exercise" kind of encounters where you give them very simple problems to solve. Like say give them a higher level soldier monster to fight. They won't be able to hit it much if they just run up and bash at it. Instead they'll have to use flanking and learn to have the leader give them hit bonuses before they use their good powers, etc. Give them a flying monster like some bloodhawks to deal with and explain to them how to ready an action to hit it when it flys down to attack or how to use their ranged attacks. Don't expect these lessons to sink in for all players. Some players also just take a long time to get it, maybe even a year or more. Maybe have other players explain things to them, sometimes a different way of explaining it works.
Great. That at the end of the day is the main thing, at least we know its not boredom that is causing the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oompa
but maybe its just me.. but i get irritated about the fact they walk into something, triggering 4 OA's and than if i tell them that.. they back down and do something else.. This happens multiple times.. Same as not keeping there sheet up to date.. they give themselves a +6 to attack when it should be +7 or +8.. I tell this.. but they don't seem to realise they should need to adjust it..
Have you tried letting them take the opportunity attacks? What incentive do they have to learn if you second guess their every move? My prediction is that things are going to get a lot more exciting for them once they do something stupid and take a load of damage, then they will have to sit up and think about their actions
As for keeping their sheets up to date I agree it is sloppy. Really this shouldn't be your problem, but I can understand the desire you have for them to fight at their full potential. All I can suggest is that you check their sheets whenever they gain a level just to make sure everything is in order.
In my opinion these aren't really hardcore rules..
They won't get kicked out, i don't demand full atention, but enough they know what is happening at the table.. is that so weird? Even for a more social game, even if its more orientated at dice rolling?
Sure they are - they're rules that say "Hey, don't treat this casually. Pay attention, or you'll get penalized". The very formalization of them into rules is the opposite of casual.
I tend to agree with previous people. Your group may not be playing serious or smart acording to you. I have a gamer in my game like this, but after a few years of playing I know that he is a lurker and he is fine with it.
You can approach some of the more serious players and ask them to draw in the other players, or have everyone agree on some rules- you may want to use the guise of 'speeding up play'. I always end up using some game time to upgrade characters, esp. with only a few players having the newest books. It's not really play time, but everyone is together and seems to have fun, and that is the most important.
What methods do other people use to help keep the attention of their players? When somebody has ummm a bit heavy handed ideas I think it's a good idea to come up with techniques which grab the players eye and mind, do you use props? for instance... having a nice token or model that represents their characters on the battlemap can help... the fantasy money thing is also a fun idea too(thanks Enworld for reminding me).
Using character builder is a nice digital assistant for advancing the characters in a regulated precise way.
Playing music like the theme from lord of the rings so that then environment you are gaming in is inspirational can help as well. I have found some people dont want to chit chat over the top of music..;-)
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
If this is a regular gaming group, I don't see any reason to have such rules in place. Rules like that are going to suck the fun out of the group and encourage people not to show up and want to leave early. If my gaming group were to introduce rules like this, I would think they were playing a prank.
First off, I strongly encourage you to read the sections of the DMG and DMG2 concerning the different player types. Identify the players in your group that fit each type and try to build on their strengths rather than penalize their weaknesses.
That said you absolutely CANNOT force your players to roleplay. In my group, we have players who are somewhat shy about roleplaying. What we've done is encourage those players to get into roleplaying by offering a "token" for good roleplaying descriptions that make it into the after-adventure story. These tokens can be turned in for a free +2 to any roll or a free saving throw attempt. What this has done is brought those players out of their shells some and while roleplaying doesn't always come easily, they make an effort to try now, because they can receive a benefit from it, but aren't made to feel like it's being forced onto them.
I see in a later post you mention players having poor tactical decisions and failing to properly update their sheets. When this happens, your best bet may be to just let them suffer their own mistakes. A PC being knocked unconscious a few times, or being killed outright and causing the remaining players to have to resurrect the dead PC will cause the players to police their own actions a little better.
One technique I like for holding the players attention better is called Active Defenses (back in Unearthed Arcana they called it players making all the rolls) ... because it feels like they are more "in the game" even when its not there turn they become more aware of the action.
I've been using this rule for a while in my games and it seems to work out pretty well. Since the defense is rolled at the same time as the attack, it doesn't really take up extra time, its easier to fudge numbers because the players can't figure out monster attacks/defenses (since they don't see my rolls), and it does help keep them engaged when it's not their turn.
but essentially when a monster makes an attack you take their attack bonus and add 12 to it. The PC rolls a d20 and adds their defense-10 to it. If they roll higher than the montser's attack they're missed, their defenses are too strong.
Example:
Monster has some power that +10 vs Will.
PC has 15 Will.
When DM say's "Okay Bob the screamer is going to blast you with its Gaze of Despair which is versus Will."
Bob rolls a d20 and adds 5 (15 - base 10) and tries to beat a 22 (10 + 12).
So defenses become saving throws against attacks. This means the players are more active when it's not their turn since they have to roll to not be hit by attacks thrown their way. Rather than when their turn is over they're free to daydream, read, text, IM, surf, etc. (But allowing players access to such attention disruptors as smart phones and laptops is another discussion).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthanos
One technique I like for holding the players attention better is called Active Defenses (back in Unearthed Arcana they called it players making all the rolls) ... because it feels like they are more "in the game" even when its not there turn they become more aware of the action.
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Last edited by DanmarLOK; 26th October 2009 at 04:23 PM..
Along side players making the rolls you can allow the player to pick up the description from where you leave off on your monsters attack... ie they describe how they are defending themselves it doesnt have to be just a die roll for defense and occasionally I let my whimsy let there defense be better because it seems just perfect for the scene and description of the attack I made (maybe it surprised me).
“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
We have a quick hack-and-slash game going on Tuesdays and the only real rule is that you can't backtrack in combat. It goes for the DM and players. It actually livens up the game since both sides to mistakes. The DM because he has so much to keep track of and some players because they aren't paying attention. We usually allow one backtrack per session. Everybody can have a bad day.
I like your rule of -10% xp for a no-show (I assume you get 90% of the normal xp, even if you haven't played?).
In my group I award "bonus" xp for players that lag so they can catch up with the other players, maybe give 10% for that?
Keeping track of "marks" doesn't sound like much fun for a DM.
Another rule we have is that when it's your turn you have to act nearly immidiatly (within 10-30 sec) or the DM will go to the next mob. You are effectively delaying until you can make up your mind. To give players a heads up I will go: "Khazad its your turn. The next player is Lemenya." (There might be mobs that act between Khazad and Lemenya).
Your merit system for equating roleplaying with exp reward is a good one, but don't be too formal about it. Don't keep track of points, but only offer the 10% bonus to one PC per session and make sure your Players know that they need to impress you to get it.
Competition inspires people.
As to the OA actions, let then suck it up. Don't backtrack because of the PCs refusing to listen to you - you're enabling misbehavior. You can't "child-proof" your game because they want to act like children - they are supposed to be heroes, and heroes don't get "do-overs". Spending a few rounds every night rolling to see if your Character is bleeding out as opposed to doing something fun is a heck of a good way to drive home the message that they need to pay attention!
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