Monster PCs as Children

[Camelot]

I want to make my PCs into children, ages 7 - 16, for a flashback sequence in which a fight takes place. Any ideas on how to go about creating stats for PCs as kids?

My thought was to make them into minions levels 1 - 9 depending on their age. Given just XP, a level 9 minion should be the same as a standard level 1 monster. Is it logical to assume that a PC, while growing up as a kid, starts as a level 1 minon, progresses up in levels to level 9 minion, then becomes a full-fledged level 1 PC? Or is the difference too sudden to rationalize that? Obviously, defenses, attack, and damage are where the real problem lies.

Is there a better way to go about making the children not as powerful as a level 1 adventurer, but still seem special compared to normal kids?

[talarei07]

make them as a classless character

HP=Con
they still get racial ability modifiers and powers (except the human extra at will power)

additional ability modifiers
-3 Str, Con:-1 Int, Wis and Cha

[Mesh Hong]

If you want to make this a fun and memorable experience for your players you may as well give their child selves a little personality (design wise).

Stat them like level 0 PCs like Talarei07 says, but present the players with stat blocks as would design a monster. This way you can tailor individual powers for them to keep things interesting and also give them powers similar that have a flavour of their later selves.

You could even give them recharge powers like a monster.

I would strongly advise against making them minions. After all you really need them to survive the experience or there is going to be a bit of a problem explaining how they overcame death to become adventurers

[chronoplasm]

Just make kids small. They can't wield grown-up weapons like two-handed weapons then. Other than that, just treat them the same as the adult versions of the characters.

[Camelot]

These are some interesting ideas. I definitely want to give them some different powers in the form of a monster stat block, like Mesh Hong said. The rules laywer inside of me cringes at the idea of creating monsters that aren't quite monsters but aren't quite PCs, though I know it must be done! Here are some ideas I jotted down:

No class features, but retain racial features.
-3 to all ability scores
Reduce HP by HP per Level Gained amount
-1 to size (Medium down to Small, Small down to Tiny)
-1 to speed
Can wear light armor (up to what class already allows) and light shield (unless class doesn't grant light shield proficiency)
Can weild simple weapons (unless class doesn't grant simple weapon proficiency)
-1 bonus to defense (your choice)
-2 trained skills
-1 feat
-1 at-will power
-1 daily power
-1 language

The -3 to all ability scores might be a tad extreme. And I wouldn't know what to do with a Tiny character. Any ideas?

I think once a child becomes a teenager, they lose a lot of those penalties and are more or less full-fledged adventurers. The youngest a normal PC can be is 18 (for humans, but it depends on the race's maturation age), but if they are younger than that but not too much younger, they only have -1 to all ability scores, one less armor proficiency, and one less trained skill.

For the sake of being well-rounded, I started jotting down ideas for other age group stats. The age groups are Infant, Toddler, Child, Teenager, Adult (the normal adventurer), Middle-aged, Old, Venerable, Ancient. You peak at Adult, and around that you are weaker in certain aspects. As you get above adult, your physical scores decrease and your mental scores increase, but as you get to Venerable, your mental scores start to decrease as well as your mind deteriorates. Of course, adventurers usually don't reach such an age. But it's nice to have numbers just in case.

[Cwheeler]

It depends on what age you want the PC's to be.

for a 7 year old, I'd probably make them quite vulnerable, and not give them any powers, while with a 16 year old, they'd probably be at least partially on the way to becoming who they will be later in life.

[Neuroglyph]

Originally Posted by Cwheeler

It depends on what age you want the PC's to be.

for a 7 year old, I'd probably make them quite vulnerable, and not give them any powers, while with a 16 year old, they'd probably be at least partially on the way to becoming who they will be later in life.

In medieval society, a 16 yo would already an adult by 2 years. If you're going to do children, you'd have to start fairly young. We're talking 6-8yo, because anything after that and the kids have already been apprenticed into their vocation.

[Mesh Hong]

Originally Posted by Camelot

These are some interesting ideas. I definitely want to give them some different powers in the form of a monster stat block, like Mesh Hong said. The rules laywer inside of me cringes at the idea of creating monsters that aren't quite monsters but aren't quite PCs, though I know it must be done! Here are some ideas I jotted down:

No class features, but retain racial features.
-3 to all ability scores
Reduce HP by HP per Level Gained amount
-1 to size (Medium down to Small, Small down to Tiny)
-1 to speed
Can wear light armor (up to what class already allows) and light shield (unless class doesn't grant light shield proficiency)
Can weild simple weapons (unless class doesn't grant simple weapon proficiency)
-1 bonus to defense (your choice)
-2 trained skills
-1 feat
-1 at-will power
-1 daily power
-1 language

The -3 to all ability scores might be a tad extreme. And I wouldn't know what to do with a Tiny character. Any ideas?

I think once a child becomes a teenager, they lose a lot of those penalties and are more or less full-fledged adventurers. The youngest a normal PC can be is 18 (for humans, but it depends on the race's maturation age), but if they are younger than that but not too much younger, they only have -1 to all ability scores, one less armor proficiency, and one less trained skill.

For the sake of being well-rounded, I started jotting down ideas for other age group stats. The age groups are Infant, Toddler, Child, Teenager, Adult (the normal adventurer), Middle-aged, Old, Venerable, Ancient. You peak at Adult, and around that you are weaker in certain aspects. As you get above adult, your physical scores decrease and your mental scores increase, but as you get to Venerable, your mental scores start to decrease as well as your mind deteriorates. Of course, adventurers usually don't reach such an age. But it's nice to have numbers just in case.

From what I can tell from your posts this is all for a short flashback sequence which will involve 1 fight.

If that is the case try not to get too bogged down with the details. Just create a quick child version of each PC, keeping a rough eye on balance. Then balance the encounter/fight from that stand point. The actual numbers in a sense don't really matter as they are stand alone and only need to balance against the adversaries in this one fight.

As an brief example this took me 10 mins:-

Tough Child Level 1 Soldier
Small Natural Humanoid XP 100

Initiative +1 Senses Perception -2
HP 26; Bloodied 13; 2 healing surges for 6 HPs
AC 17; Fortitude 14, Reflex 12, Will 12
Saving Throws +2 vs. fear
Speed 6

Sword Swing (Standard; at-will) ♦ weapon
Attack +8 vs. AC; 1d6+1 damage

Double Slash (Standard; recharge ) ♦ weapon
2 attacks against the same target; attack +7 vs. AC; 1d4+1 damage; if
both attacks hit target takes 2 ongoing bleeding damage (save ends)

Push and Stab (Standard; recharge ) ♦ weapon
Attack +6 vs. Fortitude; on hit target is pushed 1 square and knocked
prone; on miss target may shift 1 square; hit or miss Tough Child may
follow up into the square vacated by the target and make the following
secondary attack; attack +8 vs. AC; 1d8+1 damage

Menacing Attack (Standard; at-will) ♦ weapon
Attack +8 vs. AC; 1d6+1 damage; on hit target takes a -2 penalty to all
defences until the start of Tough Kids next turn

Pick on Someone Your Own Size (Move; encounter) ♦ fear
1 target within burst 3; attack +6 vs. Will; on target is pulled to the
closest free square adjacent to Tough Child and takes a -2 penalty to
attack (save ends); on miss slide the target 1 square

Alignment Unaligned Languages common
Skills Athletics +6, Endurance +5, Intimidate +5, Streetwise +5
Str 12 (+1) Dex 8 (-1) Wis 6 (-2)
Con 10 (+0) Int 8 (-1) Cha 10 (+0)
Equipment stolen short sword, leather tunic

You just need something that is going to be both fun and simple to understand for 1 encounter and has a flavour of the PC to it.

Related note:-
I recently gave my players an additional 11 NPCs to run as allies during a large combat (about 262 individual participants in play!). I took a similar approach with each of the NPCs having stat blocks like monsters and it worked really well. It was an massive fight and lots of fun, interesting enough it also gave the players more of an attachment to the NPCs which was an added bonus.

[Camelot]

Yes, the kids in question are training to be fighters, and even the seven year old has acquired a few fighting skills. Also, I looked back at my notes, and the oldest is only 14, not 16, so he's just starting his serious training. This makes him better than the others but still not as experienced as a full-fledged PC.

It is true that there is only one fight, but it is followed by a skill challenge. It's a fairly easy challenge, also because they will be aided by an adult PC, but still there. So, I don't want to focus only on combat.

Mesh, thanks for the example! Those are some good ideas. I actually think that's a little overpowered, but I'd like to work with it.

When I get some stats I'll post them here. I'll also post my skill challenge, which I already have a good idea of how it goes.

[Celebrim]

If they are already in training, and the flashback is going to be brief, the easiest thing to do is make themselves with a smaller sized body and reduced stats. The 14 year old gets to keep his adult sized body (since its nearly there).

In 1e I used to do child stats as

child age/16 * adult stat for strength, intelligence, and dexterity.
(child age/16 * adults stat)/2 + adult stat/2 for constitution, wisdom, and charisma.

You can precompute their stat arrays and hand them to them on 3x5 note cards at the beginning of the flash back.

Keep everything else the same, or if you must rule daily powers aren't available. It's otherwise not worth making them go through chargen twice unless the flashback is going to take more than a full session.

[Camelot]

Here's what I ended up using, and I think it worked very well, mostly because the scene was relatively short and XP was ignored. Start with a normal character and apply the following:
Child
Decrease size by one category.
Adjust height and weight appropriately.
Reduce base speed by 1.
Decrease number of languages known by 1.
Decrease each ability score by 4.
Remove one bonus to a defense from the class traits. If there is a +2 bonus to one defense, it becomes a +1 bonus.
Reduce hit points by twice the value of hit points per level gained.
Reduce healing surges per day by 4.
Reduce number of trained skills by 2.
Remove class features.
Reduce number of feats known by 1.
Reduce number of at-will attack powers known by 1.
Reduce number of daily attack powers known by 1.
Remove the two highest armor and shield proficiencies.
Remove the highest melee and ranged weapon proficiencies.
Start with 70 less gp for equipment.
The character has 0 XP and cannot gain XP.
Teenager
Adjust the height and weight appropriately.
Decrease each ability score by 1.
Reduce the number of trained skills by 1.
Remove the highest armor and shield proficiency.
Start with 30 less gp for equipment.

I was satisfied with the results, because they were able to survive while the children still seemed helpless and the teenagers were just below the cut. If you need to make young PCs, I suggest these adjustments.

Oh, and here's the skill challenge I came up with, just for kicks. They just barely beat it, though that was because there were two PCs doing it, and one was a kid.

Through Streets and Storm
Skill Challenge
The characters are running through the allies of the town during a goblin attack. A magical storm hinders their progress as they try to reach home. One NPC must be carried and kept alive after receiving a near fatal wound from an encounter with a bloodthirsty goblin.
Level
1 (100 XP)
Complexity
1 (requires 4 successes before 3 failures)
Primary Skills
Acrobatics (DC 10): The character ducks and dodges through alleys to avoid encountering goblins. This skill can provide a maximum of 1 success.
Athletics (DC 10): The character climbs fences and runs fast to avoid encountering goblins. This skill can provide a maximum of 1 success.
Stealth (DC 10): The character sneaks past goblins to avoid encountering them. This skill can provide a maximum of 1 success.
Streetwise (DC 10): The character uses knowledge of the streets to find the easiest way home. This skill can provide a maximum of 1 success.
Secondary Skills
Arcana (DC 5): The character uses their knowledge of the magical storm to get through it. The next character to make an Endurance check gains a +2 bonus or a -2 penalty to their check.
Endurance (DC 15, after the 1st and 3rd successes, group check): The character resists the force of the magical storm. Characters who fail lose a healing surge.
Heal (DC 10): The character makes sure the unconscious child stays alive while the group is fleeing. At the end of the challenge, the unconscious child loses 3 healing surges. The number of healing surges he loses is reduced by 1 for each success with this skill. If the unconscious child loses all his heaing surges, he dies.
History (DC 10): The character uses their knowledge of past battles with goblins to try and remember how their strategy works. The next character to make a Stealth or a Streetwise check gains a +2 bonus or a -2 penalty to their check.
Perception (DC 10): The character looks out for easier routes to take. The next character to make an Acrobatics or Athletics check gains a +2 bonus or a -2 penalty to their check.
Success
If the characters achieve 4 successes before 3 failures, they reach their home. The unconscious child loses healing surges if the cahracters did not make enough Heal checks.
Failure
If the characters get 3 failures, they encounter a group of goblins that they can't run away from. Begin a combat encounter immediately. If the characers win the encounter, restart the challenge. The unconscious child still loses healing surges from both challenges.

[Turtlejay]

I wanted to reply to this thread after I had thought over this specific problem a little. I really like the idea, and my thoughts were headed in this direction. It is fundamentally easier to place the burden of character respec on the players, so I was thinking along these lines, but probably less comprehensive. This is a good system, I like it.

Jay