Gary Gygax Q&A: Part XIII

[Col_Pladoh]

Deleted

[Col_Pladoh]

Originally Posted by Odnasept

...

I was however somewhat baffled by the origins of my favourite non-unique dragon, the aforementioned Draco Nobilis Argentum a.k.a. the Silver Dragon. I had never heard of the 'Blur Dragon', but swift and fruitless searches of Wikipedia and Google led me to the consideration that it may in fact have been a typo for 'Blue Dragon'.

Sorry to have made things nebulous by that typo done in haste.

I now have two more dragon-related questions:

Firstly, is there any reason why the other Metallic dragons (the Silver in particular) look somewhat- to considerably less oriental in design than the Gold Dragon, or was it simply so that they would fit better into a game which tends to focus largely on a mediaeval Western world-style milieu?

Artists whim alone, and not any desire on my part. They were all to be more serpentine in form as is typical of the Oriental dragon.

Cheers,
Gary

Secondly, what is your stance on the increase in power dragons received upon the release of the 2nd Edition AD&D game? They were always beings of great power, but the non-unique dragons went from being inferior to the most powerful of giants to being able to surpass them and perhaps even Titans as well once they reached the eldest age categories (I persynally almost always supported this change, though my reason is primarily due to an inherent love of dragonkind and ambivalence toward giantkind).

I am much appaled by the over-emphasis of the prowess of the Occidental dragon. They were continually slain by humans, so what is the justification for the power increase? Nothing but the hubris of the inept designer. OTOH, if proper stats were desired, the Oriental dragons are the ones that need be vastly improved in their capacities.

This is not to say that I did not intend to beef up these critters in a revised edition of the AD&D game. I was planning to move the base HD from d8 to d10 or maybe d12, and give them additional attack damage equal to the number of HD possessed, this in an incrimental scale (intended) based on the HPs per HD possessed. As i mentined previously, all large and robust critters were to have gained d12 HD base, HP spread based on 50% of HD + a variable addition above that equal to up to another 50%, along with damage addition based on HD#. (I have dine this in the camopaign material I have created for the C&C RPG system.)

In short, I do not believe that dragins were everm or should be now, the toughest monsters in the marches, and I will not cave in to pressure to change my mind in that regard.

[Col_Pladoh]

Originally Posted by francisca

Happy belated birthday, you old warhorse!

Gary-

In regards to the Beholder, there is an obvious pun regarding it's eye. Any funny anecdotes about it? Was the "Eye of the Beholder" cliche' central to it's creation?

Also, how did Mike Carr become involved with TSR? Was publishing Fight in the Skies/Dawn Patrol part of the reason for bringing him in, or was TSR's publishing of the game a by-product (so to speak) of his presence in the company? ( I recently picked up a copy of Dawn Patrol, and plan on running a session at LGGC IV.)

G'Day!

Thanks. The B'day was a fun one. Now if I had a valid credit card I would be a charger

Terry Kuntz was the primary creator of the Beholder, why I have no idea, excpet maybe he was a glutton for havng his PC punished. All I did was detail the monster and polish the concept--one that is an excellent one for sure! The pun was unintended by Terry. He just chose the term because of the number of eyes the criter possessed as far as I can ascertain.

Mike Carr was a member of the gaming group to which Dave Arneson belonged. Mike was a co-author with Dave and me of the Don't Give up the Ship nevalminiatures rules for the Great Age of Sail. As Brian Blume was a great fan of Mikes WWI aerial combat game, Brian hired him on at TSR. After Mike was a staff member Brian decided the company needed to publish Dawn Patrol--a rotten game because my guns always jammed or else I was shot down


Gary

[Gentlegamer]

Originally Posted by Col_Pladoh

I am much appaled by the over-emphasis of the prowess of the Occidental dragon. They were continually slain by humans, so what is the justification for the power increase? Nothing but the hubris of the inept designer. OTOH, if proper stats were desired, the Oriental dragons are the ones that need be vastly improved in their capacities.

. . .

In short, I do not believe that dragins were everm or should be now, the toughest monsters in the marches, and I will not cave in to pressure to change my mind in that regard.

That is an interesting take considering the power of dragons in Mentzer's BECM D&D rules.

[Col_Pladoh]

Heh!

First, I believe I had better wotch the typos I make...blasted worn keybord aside

Frank was given leave by me, and that means virtualky free rein, to develop the D&D, as opposed to AD&D, game in a direction that led to super-powerful PCs if the DM so desired. That assuredly led to what I consider over-powered dragons

Cheers,
Gary

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Originally Posted by Gentlegamer

That is an interesting take considering the power of dragons in Mentzer's BECM D&D rules.

Well the power level of that set really went fully to 36th level where as AD&D really didn't go that far. So I guess they wanted dragons for L25 parties and stuff like that.

[Col_Pladoh]

Originally Posted by Flexor the Mighty!

Well the power level of that set really went fully to 36th level where as AD&D really didn't go that far. So I guess they wanted dragons for L25 parties and stuff like that.

That's it in a nutshell

Cheers,
Gary

[gideon_thorne]

Originally Posted by Col_Pladoh

This is not to say that I did not intend to beef up these critters in a revised edition of the AD&D game. I was planning to move the base HD from d8 to d10 or maybe d12, and give them additional attack damage equal to the number of HD possessed, this in an incremental scale (intended) based on the HPs per HD possessed. As i mentioned previously, all large and robust critters were to have gained d12 HD base, HP spread based on 50% of HD + a variable addition above that equal to up to another 50%, along with damage addition based on HD#. (I have done this in the campaign material I have created for the C&C RPG system.)

It might be of general interest to note, as well, that the C&C Monsters & Treasure book presents various monsters somewhat as described above. Towit, varying hit die, as well as damage, base to hit, and save bonus's based on # of HD.

[Gentlegamer]

Originally Posted by Flexor the Mighty!

Well the power level of that set really went fully to 36th level where as AD&D really didn't go that far. So I guess they wanted dragons for L25 parties and stuff like that.

Perhaps, but the actual power level of a level 36 D&D character was roughly equal to a 20th level AD&D character.

[Gentlegamer]

Originally Posted by Col_Pladoh

Frank was given leave by me, and that means virtually free rein, to develop the D&D, as opposed to AD&D, game in a direction that led to super-powerful PCs if the DM so desired. That assuredly led to what I consider over-powered dragons

I understand. The two versions of D&D were separate games with different basic premises in that regard.

Were there any design features of that game line you though would be desirable for inclusion in a revised AD&D game?

[Col_Pladoh]

Originally Posted by Gentlegamer

I understand. The two versions of D&D were separate games with different basic premises in that regard.

Were there any design features of that game line you though would be desirable for inclusion in a revised AD&D game?

As an aside here, I do not believe a 36th level OD&D PC was equalled by a 20th level AD&D one...

After over 20 years, who can remember that sort of detail? Creating monsters I have dealt with continually iver the intervening years, pondering other changes I have not. For example, I couldn't give details of the new PC classes I intended to add unless I came across the notes I made on them.

Cheers,
Gary

[mattcolville]

Originally Posted by Col_Pladoh

Your question is one that has not been posed previously...and it is a tough one to answer.

From my POV there are virtually no fantasy motion pictures that would depict anything close to a campaign that I Game Mastered. Not even those dreadful "Conan" flicks have any merit in regards Sowrds & Sorcery theming. So...

The spirit of the adventuring I attempt to provide is conveyed The Deep and the hoped for excitement in The Naked Prey. Another good picture for capturing the spirit of a fantasy adventure is surely Big Trouble in Little China.

Party cooperation is pretty well conveyed in the second D&D movie, that work being a good deal better than the abominable first one.

The sense of lurking fear might be captured in the original The Thing, or in the old B&W movie She.

Exotic world setting and outdoor adventuring are well done in the Rongs trology motion pictures, and for a different take on that subject the original King Kong.

For general fantastic adventure and combat many of the Chinese martial arts films convey such images well, as they contain many elements of the FRPG game form--heroic protagonists questing, facing challenges, defeating powerful antagonists, overcoming personal fears, etc.

I hope that covers it. Come on back if you have any additional questions.

Cheers,
Gary

It's a good answer.

It's interesting that your first response is the Conan movie(s). I presume that's because, over the years, people with affection for the movie ask you what you thought of it, expecting the answer to be positive. Certainly there's a lot to be disappointed in.

I've noticed you say, and the evidence bears out, that you like some SF thrown in with your Fantasy. Would a "Gygaxian" fantasy movie be Swords & Sorcery, or more genre-bending stuff? I remember Krull had not only a group of adventurers, but some SF elements kinda casually tossed in.

The 13th Warrior often tops lists on message board forums of "best fantasy movie." That always struck me as a very low-fantasy (indeed, strictly speaking, no-fantasy) gaming-movie. I know it's John Zinzer at AEG's favorite movie for precisely that reason.

Do you ever watch a movie and find yourself inspired to include elements from it in one of your adventures?

[Gentlegamer]

Originally Posted by mattcolville

I've noticed you say, and the evidence bears out, that you like some SF thrown in with your Fantasy. Would a "Gygaxian" fantasy movie be Swords & Sorcery, or more genre-bending stuff? I remember Krull had not only a group of adventurers, but some SF elements kinda casually tossed in.

I think that in many ways, the sci-fi/fantasy dichotomy is a false one. Many of the most influential stories in the "fantasy" genre have a healthy dose of "sci-fi" in them as well. In fact, it is this quality that serves as the primary difference between that genre that began in the 20th century that separated it from the "fairy tales" that preceded it.

I think Gary's preference, like mine, isn't necessarily for "sword and sorcery" but for "pulp adventure" and the "well wrought tale" genre. This view is comfortable with running a pseudo-medieval campaign setting that has crashed space ships, side treks to Barsoom, guargantuan carnivorous apes, and cowboys.

[Odnasept]

Originally Posted by Col_Pladoh

I am much appaled by the over-emphasis of the prowess of the Occidental dragon. They were continually slain by humans, so what is the justification for the power increase? Nothing but the hubris of the inept designer. OTOH, if proper stats were desired, the Oriental dragons are the ones that need be vastly improved in their capacities.

This is not to say that I did not intend to beef up these critters in a revised edition of the AD&D game. I was planning to move the base HD from d8 to d10 or maybe d12, and give them additional attack damage equal to the number of HD possessed, this in an incrimental scale (intended) based on the HPs per HD possessed. As i mentined previously, all large and robust critters were to have gained d12 HD base, HP spread based on 50% of HD + a variable addition above that equal to up to another 50%, along with damage addition based on HD#. (I have dine this in the camopaign material I have created for the C&C RPG system.)

In short, I do not believe that dragons were ever or should be now, the toughest monsters in the marches, and I will not cave in to pressure to change my mind in that regard.

Hisssss! You have displeased Tiamat! Dragons must be all-powerful! Curse the giants! Cuurrrssssse themmm!!!


Seriously though, I have often found that smaller, more cunning dragons could present an especially well-played challenge to PCs (this October will mark the ten-year anniversary of my players' lamentation of the power and strategy of a 28-hit-point Young Adult Black Dragon and her 8-hit-point hatchling, for example) without having to be restricted to the status of 'unkillable gods' as one DM I know has done. Your statements also remind us of the fact that your game predates the video game RPG and had instead traditional and classical mythology as inspiration, which (at least in the West) does not require dragonkind to be at all all-powerful.

Which leads me to another somewhat dragon-related question, though I promise it will be the last at least until I come up with the next one. I recall the appearance of 1st Edition AD&D stats for the characters of the Arthurian Legends (I believe that Merlin was 23rd Level ), and as I read more of them I have become curious to what extent they may have inspired/influenced any aspect of AD&D (I am thinking also of various chromatic colours of dragon that appear therein).

Once again, thank you for all your insightful replies,

A fellow gamer and designer,

Odnasept

[Redwald]

Originally Posted by Edena_of_Neith

I would tell a story then.
It's a very long story (it's a long post even by my standards.) Please read it at your leisure, or whatever part you wish.
I feel I owe it to you, Gary. You deserve a full explanation from me.

Back in 1976, I learned of a game called D&D (what everyone calls OD&D now) and I attempted playing it.

[hundreds of lines snipped]

So there you have it.

I kept expecting this to end with:

But Edena has not yet been to college.