(Discussion) Questions regarding craft points

[IcyCool]

Hi all, I have two questions regarding craft points that didn't seem to be addressed in their discussion.

1. The Fabricate spell. Does this spell simply provide you with the needed craft points for a non-magical item or the non-magical portion (such as a masterwork weapon) of a magic item? Or does a non-magical item/portion just not use any craft points?

2. Multiple spells on a single scroll. Is scribing multiple spells onto a single scroll considered creating one magic item or many? For example, Timmy the 1st-level mage scribes 4 level 1 scrolls. This costs him 25 gp each, and 4 exp. Under the current craft points system, this also costs him 4 craft points. That is pretty straight forward. Now let's say that Timmy wants to create a single scroll with 4 level 1 spells on it. Does this cost him 100gp, 4 exp, and 1 craft point (as a single magic item), or 100gp, 4 exp, and 4 craft points (as multiple magic items)?

I have a couple of suggestions on how I think it should work:
1. Non-magical items and non-magical portions of magic items require no craft points to create when created with the Fabricate spell. A craft check is still required, as per the spell description. For magic items, subtract out the cost for the non-magical component before calculating the amount of craft points used.

2. I'm currently playing a wizard, so I'm in favor of "Multiple spells on a single scroll count as a single magical item." For this to work however, a mechanic must be established detailing how many spells or spell levels can be present on a scroll. (So it would probably be easier to count them as multiple magic items.)

Answers? Opinions?

[Knight Otu]

I'm unsure about 1; I'll post the SRD entry for Fabricate.

Fabricate
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: See text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.
You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.
Material Component: The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.

2. First off, it is 1 Craft point per 10 gp, not 100 gp, but your point still stands. (And the material cost is 12.5)
In your example, calculating it as 4 different scrolls would cost 8 Craft Points, and as a single scroll, it would be 10 Craft Points. Personally, I'd treat adding a spell to a scroll the same as creating a seperate scroll, which also happens to be the better deal in those cases where the market price is not dividable by 10 (usually the odd spell levels).
As for the number of spells on a single scrolls - it seems that 6 spells is a maximum, according to the SRD.

[IcyCool]

Originally Posted by Knight Otu

2. First off, it is 1 Craft point per 10 gp, not 100 gp, but your point still stands. (And the material cost is 12.5)
In your example, calculating it as 4 different scrolls would cost 8 Craft Points, and as a single scroll, it would be 10 Craft Points. Personally, I'd treat adding a spell to a scroll the same as creating a seperate scroll, which also happens to be the better deal in those cases where the market price is not dividable by 10 (usually the odd spell levels).
As for the number of spells on a single scrolls - it seems that 6 spells is a maximum, according to the SRD.

Ahh, my mistake. I could have sworn it was 1 Craft point per 100 gp. My concerns about this are laid to rest, but I am curious as to how we will look at multiple spells on a single scroll. Do they count as a single item or multiple items?

[Creamsteak]

The prices for magic scrolls with multiple scrolls fused onto one item are considered seperate items as far as item creation goes. This is because they don't occupy an "item slot" persay. That's the way I think that scrolls with multiple spells are priced. A scroll with a 25 gp, 150 gp, and 300 gp spell would be worth the sum of the three seperate prices, I believe.

I could be wrong, but I think this was confirmed in 3.0 by the Sage articles. I imagine since prices havn't changed for the same items, that still stands.

[IcyCool]

Sorry to dredge this up again, but I am still curious. Has anyone in the know decided how the Fabricate spell interacts with Craft Points?

[azmodean]

Unrelated question, but concerning Crafting.
If a character is crafting an item which has spell requirements, do they have to actually cast the spell, incurring the costs of doing so, or do they just have to be able to cast the spell, for instance, from a scroll?
For instance, requirements for creating a flesh golem:

Originally Posted by SRD

Assembling the body requires a DC 13 Craft (leatherworking) check or a DC 13 Heal check.
CL 8th; Craft Construct, animate dead, bull's strength, geas/quest, limited wish, caster must be at least 8th level; Price 20,000 gp; Cost 10,500 gp + 780 XP

It states "caster must be at least 8th level", but memorising limited wish requires the caster be at least lvl 13. In case you are wondering, this isn't a hypothetical, I want my character to be a golem creator.

In other words, would a character be able to fufill this requirement by possessing an item which can cast the spell without actually casting the spell? (possibly with the spellcraft check that is required to cast from a scroll containing a spell which is higher-level than the caster's caster level)

In other other words, could an 8th level wizard (with the appropriate feats and resources) actually be able to create a flesh golem at the listed cost?

[Knight Otu]

I'm not aware of any rulings we made on Fabricate. I'm inclined to say that it grants some number of craft points for that item only (2 or 3 per cl?), which for many items means that it would not cost any craft points.

azmodean: If you do somehow manage to obtain a scroll or similar item of limited wish (golem manuals for instance), you can use it for the golem creation. Check "Magic Items I, Magic Item Descriptions, Prerequisites" in the SRD. But I think limited wish scrolls would be rather rare...

[azmodean]

That pretty much trashes the concept of a golem creating character, I might still use him as a general artificer. Thanks for the response.

[Knight Otu]

Not necessarily - as I said in the GD thread, you could always propose different golems (for example, stone golems do not require limited wish, so it might be possible to propose a lesser stone golem with lower spell requirements, small or medium size, and no blanket spell immunity.)

[Steve Jung]

I have a question regarding the rules. With craft points, can a crafter complete more than one item per day? Or complete items that normally take more than one day to make on consecutive days? Under the normal rules, only one item can be worked on at a time.

[Jdvn1]

I also have a slightly related question. Would training animals work in the same way as craft points? I'd like to, eventually, train exotic animals to be mounts and it seems like the mechanism would be the same as craft points.

[Living Enworld Judge]

Steve: I didn't find anything that allows to work on more item, so I'm inclined to say that only one item can be worked on at the time. I think this is also enhanced by the fact that the item is ready the next morning according to the rules.

Jdvn1: I think that makes sense. Spell Research propably as well. I'll see to writing a proposal on that later today.

[Jdvn1]

Thanks, diggity. That'd take another feat, I'm guessing? Something like Train Mount? Or would you make a separate feat for exotic mounts?

[Knight Otu]

Propably no feat for animals, but for other types, there should be a feat.

[Jdvn1]

Sounds good, I'd make it more specific. No feat for horses, ponies, or dogs. Because I was thinking I could train a Dire Wolf, and that's an animal. Might need the feat for that.

[Steve Jung]

Originally Posted by Living Enworld Judge

Steve: I didn't find anything that allows to work on more item, so I'm inclined to say that only one item can be worked on at the time. I think this is also enhanced by the fact that the item is ready the next morning according to the rules.

OK. That makes sense. Thanks.

[Jdvn1]

Originally Posted by Living Enworld Judge

Jdvn1: I think that makes sense. Spell Research propably as well. I'll see to writing a proposal on that later today.

Not sure about the mechanics of the training aspect, but I'll post the template for the animals.