Because there's more motion in the ocean...

[The_Universe]

And you have an enemy ironclad (the ship you captured) just sitting in a whole in the ground.

Part of it *is* because I want some naval action, but there are in-game reasons, as well.

[Laurel]

Yep lots of IC reasons to go there as well, and quite a few good IC reasons listed in this thread as to why we need to go by sea and land.... the apeal of the sea battle was as stated simply a meta reason



How done is our port and river in Hywrl at this stage, and how many ships do we have approximately? We had some that people had come in on from around the ring when they were seeking refuge. And the Iron clad that we stole at the least.

[The_Universe]

Originally Posted by Laurel

Yep lots of IC reasons to go there as well, and quite a few good IC reasons listed in this thread as to why we need to go by sea and land.... the apeal of the sea battle was as stated simply a meta reason



How done is our port and river in Hywrl at this stage, and how many ships do we have approximately? We had some that people had come in on from around the ring when they were seeking refuge. And the Iron clad that we stole at the least.

The Canal to the coast is barely completed - it will probably be at least 5 years before you can move anything larger than a small barge or a rowboat from the coast to New Oceanus. At the same time, trying to cut a harbor out of the coastline is going to continue to take time and resources. It may be about 7 years before you can get the coastline dredged enough to allow a warship or merchantman into the harbor at all, even if the canal is completed first.

When it's done (and feel free to correct me if I remember this incorrectly) the actual port will be in New Oceanus, with a canal/manmade river allowing vessels to approach the city proper.

Alternatively, you could do something similar to what the ancient Athenians did and build the port on the coast (which removes the cost and time of the canal) and then build a wall on either side of the road from the city to the port.

All that being said, you now control several port cities, including: Dwarfsport, Crisoth, Krosport, and Sylvanus. Though you don't have many (any) dedicated warships, you have access to the foundries at Khaz Modan, and there are dry dock and shipbuilding facilities at all of the ports I mentioned above.

At the very least, it should be possible to purchase and arm merchant vessels, or at least issue letters of marque to merchant captains who may wish to try their hands at bloodying the draconids' collective noses. I'd recommend doing both.

As of the current moment, the Draconid Ironclad is unarmed (you used its cannon on the walls at New Oceanus) but it could be rearmed with dwarven cannon or any number of other potential weapons.

[AIM-54]

Originally Posted by The_Universe

The Canal to the coast is barely completed - it will probably be at least 5 years before you can move anything larger than a small barge or a rowboat from the coast to New Oceanus. At the same time, trying to cut a harbor out of the coastline is going to continue to take time and resources. It may be about 7 years before you can get the coastline dredged enough to allow a warship or merchantman into the harbor at all, even if the canal is completed first.

When it's done (and feel free to correct me if I remember this incorrectly) the actual port will be in New Oceanus, with a canal/manmade river allowing vessels to approach the city proper.

Alternatively, you could do something similar to what the ancient Athenians did and build the port on the coast (which removes the cost and time of the canal) and then build a wall on either side of the road from the city to the port.

All that being said, you now control several port cities, including: Dwarfsport, Crisoth, Krosport, and Sylvanus. Though you don't have many (any) dedicated warships, you have access to the foundries at Khaz Modan, and there are dry dock and shipbuilding facilities at all of the ports I mentioned above.

At the very least, it should be possible to purchase and arm merchant vessels, or at least issue letters of marque to merchant captains who may wish to try their hands at bloodying the draconids' collective noses. I'd recommend doing both.

As of the current moment, the Draconid Ironclad is unarmed (you used its cannon on the walls at New Oceanus) but it could be rearmed with dwarven cannon or any number of other potential weapons.

Hmmm. We should definitely get some of those shipbuilding facilities on warship construction ASAP. Indeed, I would be willing to fund some of it out of whatever my cut is of the current treasure (since there's nothing I really need to buy). I think we should have them focus on frigate type vessels; we want them to be fast, but pack enough of a punch to do some damage. I'm also for issuing letters of marque. Up to now, the draconids have had pretty much free reign over the sea, it's time to start nibbling away at them there, too.

As for us, it sounds like our best bet is to dig out the Monitor ( ), get some fresh cannons for her (and maybe a couple privateers to accompany it if we can find any) and sail for Citadel Refuge once we've got it worked out.

[The_Universe]

Originally Posted by AIM-54

Hmmm. We should definitely get some of those shipbuilding facilities on warship construction ASAP.

Definitely. In fact, it's probably already happening, but if you have a specific idea for what direction you want shipbuilding/conversion to go at this point, it can certainly happen that way.

Indeed, I would be willing to fund some of it out of whatever my cut is of the current treasure (since there's nothing I really need to buy). I think we should have them focus on frigate type vessels; we want them to be fast, but pack enough of a punch to do some damage. I'm also for issuing letters of marque. Up to now, the draconids have had pretty much free reign over the sea, it's time to start nibbling away at them there, too.

Exactly what I was thinking. In a long-lost star wars game, we (I was playing and GMing) offered to absorb some of the cost of arming merchant vessels that wished to privateer against the Empire - you may wish to do something similar (or provide some other enticement to better encourage privateering - generous salvage rights are the very least of what you'd need to do, I think).

As for us, it sounds like our best bet is to dig out the Monitor ( ), get some fresh cannons for her (and maybe a couple privateers to accompany it if we can find any) and sail for Citadel Refuge once we've got it worked out.

The draconid ship is probably a little bit more like the Merrimac (The CSS Virginia) than it was like the Monitor - it looks like it's just a warship with iron plating grafted to it, rather than a vessel specifically built as an ironclad (Nice catch on the reference, though! WHEE! ). In the limited naval forays that you've heard reports of, more and more draconid vessels are becoming similarly armored - but comparably few are armed with cannon (probably because you control 2 of the 3 big foundries/forges). Those that do have cannon generally seem to have only a few, with the remaining firepower being taken care of by magic and older weapons like ballistae.

Of course, it's also not a steam vessel like the two examples above were. It's got sails and oars (and a slave deck so that there are people to man the oars) for when the wind is too weak to push it.

[AIM-54]

Originally Posted by The_Universe

Definitely. In fact, it's probably already happening, but if you have a specific idea for what direction you want shipbuilding/conversion to go at this point, it can certainly happen that way.

Okay, I'm thinking along the lines of continuing with ironclad vessels as we're able, but with an eye to keeping the majority fast, flexible ships that can operate both as credible warships, scout vessels and the like, maybe kicking out one ship of the line per five frigates or something (that's completely out of my ass, because I have no clue what their production capabilities are). We're going to want some heavier ships, but we're essentially starting out like the US Navy in the 18th Century...the Draconids have way more ships, we can't stand toe-to-toe with them. So we don't.

Originally Posted by The_Universe

Exactly what I was thinking. In a long-lost star wars game, we (I was playing and GMing) offered to absorb some of the cost of arming merchant vessels that wished to privateer against the Empire - you may wish to do something similar (or provide some other enticement to better encourage privateering - generous salvage rights are the very least of what you'd need to do, I think).

Hmmm, that might be a better strategy than just payments to the shipyards. I'll certainly put my share of the latest loot towards that. And I think we can certainly give them generous salvage rights, as I think we're more interested in seeing harm done to the enemy than in acquiring loot for ourselves.

Originally Posted by The_Universe

The draconid ship is probably a little bit more like the Merrimac (The CSS Virginia) than it was like the Monitor - it looks like it's just a warship with iron plating grafted to it, rather than a vessel specifically built as an ironclad (Nice catch on the reference, though! WHEE! ). In the limited naval forays that you've heard reports of, more and more draconid vessels are becoming similarly armored - but comparably few are armed with cannon (probably because you control 2 of the 3 big foundries/forges). Those that do have cannon generally seem to have only a few, with the remaining firepower being taken care of by magic and older weapons like ballistae. Of course, it's also not a steam vessel like the two examples above were. It's got sails and oars (and a slave deck so that there are people to man the oars) for when the wind is too weak to push it.

Well, I had a 50/50 chance...

Sounds like we should use our comparative advantage to ensure cannons for all! And magic where we can spare it...can't overlook that.

And we'll need to find a crew for the Merritor ( ), but I suppose that can be taken care of without too much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[The_Universe]

Originally Posted by AIM-54

Okay, I'm thinking along the lines of continuing with ironclad vessels as we're able, but with an eye to keeping the majority fast, flexible ships that can operate both as credible warships, scout vessels and the like, maybe kicking out one ship of the line per five frigates or something (that's completely out of my ass, because I have no clue what their production capabilities are).

Well, it's not like I have the production capabilities of the shipyards recorded and waiting for this moment, either. Yours seems like a reasonable number. We'll go with that for now.

We're going to want some heavier ships, but we're essentially starting out like the US Navy in the 18th Century...the Draconids have way more ships, we can't stand toe-to-toe with them. So we don't.

Right on. Liz's thread on tanks actually had a good idea that might apply to this, as well (at least in terms of ironclads). Someone suggested that rather than producing steam power in the mundane way (coal boilers) you might get a similar result by binding a water elemental and a fire elemental into a containment tank, and letting the resulting steam power the vessel - all without fuel requirements.

Hmmm, that might be a better strategy than just payments to the shipyards. I'll certainly put my share of the latest loot towards that. And I think we can certainly give them generous salvage rights, as I think we're more interested in seeing harm done to the enemy than in acquiring loot for ourselves.

I have no idea if something like that would work in the real world - but it was ENORMOUSLY successful in the star wars game. Who doesn't want free guns? With the generous salvage rights, you sort of let economics do the work that patriotism and bravery can't.

Well, I had a 50/50 chance...

That you did - and since my dislike of the Confederate navy is relatively well known, it was reasonable that you would have guessed the Union vessel.

Sounds like we should use our comparative advantage to ensure cannons for all! And magic where we can spare it...can't overlook that.

You definitely have a general comparative advantage in terms of technology across the board. If you could take Arutha's Forge from them, all the major foundries would be yours - they'd have a tough time armoring their navy without one.

But, the draconids probably have you beat in terms of raw magical power, and numbers, as well - they can convert defeated forces quickly into loyal soldiers, and there seems to be a never-ending supply of them from wherever they're coming from in the first place.

And we'll need to find a crew for the Merritor ( ), but I suppose that can be taken care of without too much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It probably does need a name, eh? And crewing is not a problem. You'll get the best crew available - who wants to dink with that?

[AIM-54]

Originally Posted by The_Universe

Right on. Liz's thread on tanks actually had a good idea that might apply to this, as well (at least in terms of ironclads). Someone suggested that rather than producing steam power in the mundane way (coal boilers) you might get a similar result by binding a water elemental and a fire elemental into a containment tank, and letting the resulting steam power the vessel - all without fuel requirements.

That is an interesting idea...and one I imagine gets kicked around every time steam power gets brought up in these sorts of situations. Might as well experiment with it and see if it works. The question is, how much power and for how long? What really happens when you put a water and fire elemental in the same enclosed space? Maybe we'll discover quantum physics, along the lines of Schroedinger's Cat! Depending on the answers, it might be just as economical to have whatever steam propulsion is the norm...or even still sails and such, depending on the level of tech (there were some pretty interesting sail/steam hybrids before steam really took over, as I recall).

I have no idea if something like that would work in the real world - but it was ENORMOUSLY successful in the star wars game. Who doesn't want free guns? With the generous salvage rights, you sort of let economics do the work that patriotism and bravery can't.

I can't imagine it wouldn't work. It might even provide more incentive because we're providing guns. Back in the days of yore (17th C? 16th? I can never remember) letters of marque were pretty popular and a good way to have naval forces without actually having naval forces. So I imagine there will be a few young, enterprising captains willing to take up the flag, as it were.

That you did - and since my dislike of the Confederate navy is relatively well known, it was reasonable that you would have guessed the Union vessel.

More of an Admiral Farragut guy, I see. "Damn the torpedos! Full speed ahead!"

You definitely have a general comparative advantage in terms of technology across the board. If you could take Arutha's Forge from them, all the major foundries would be yours - they'd have a tough time armoring their navy without one.

But, the draconids probably have you beat in terms of raw magical power, and numbers, as well - they can convert defeated forces quickly into loyal soldiers, and there seems to be a never-ending supply of them from wherever they're coming from in the first place.

Bah. Overcoming impossible odds is the name of the game (that dungeons and dragons crap is all smoke and mirrors ). Or was once we hit Oceanus...

[The_Universe]

Originally Posted by AIM-54

That is an interesting idea...and one I imagine gets kicked around every time steam power gets brought up in these sorts of situations. Might as well experiment with it and see if it works. The question is, how much power and for how long? What really happens when you put a water and fire elemental in the same enclosed space? Maybe we'll discover quantum physics, along the lines of Schroedinger's Cat! Depending on the answers, it might be just as economical to have whatever steam propulsion is the norm...or even still sails and such, depending on the level of tech (there were some pretty interesting sail/steam hybrids before steam really took over, as I recall).

Good point. Elemental binding, if it's possible, is likely to be pretty friggin' expensive. It might be the most efficient way to produce steam power, but if it costs significantly more than the mundane version, it still isn't going to happen - they'll just mine coal and heat it up. It's the same problem we have had historically with Hybrid (and fuel cell) vehicles.

But anyway, since the very idea of elementals defy actual physics on every level (at least elementals made of fire, water, earth and air) partical physics is probably out the window! But it could work. I'm inclined to allow it, but we'd have to figure out how much something like that would cost, in order to see if it would be better to just boil water.

I can't imagine it wouldn't work. It might even provide more incentive because we're providing guns. Back in the days of yore (17th C? 16th? I can never remember) letters of marque were pretty popular and a good way to have naval forces without actually having naval forces. So I imagine there will be a few young, enterprising captains willing to take up the flag, as it were.

Oh yeah - it was *my* idea in the Star Wars game of yore, and so of course it's going to work. I'm not above a little self-congratulation. It'll work. Now the question is: how much good is it going to do against enemy ironclads?

More of an Admiral Farragut guy, I see. "Damn the torpedos! Full speed ahead!"

Of course!

Bah. Overcoming impossible odds is the name of the game (that dungeons and dragons crap is all smoke and mirrors ). Or was once we hit Oceanus...

Indeed.

[The_Universe]

Just for the record, I did some figuring for a ship propelled by bound water elementals (which neatly sidesteps the issue of having steam power, and reduces/eliminates the need for sail, making iron-clad vessels more practical):

488,000 GP, not including the cost of armoring the thing. It does include the actual vessel, the bound elementals, cannon and shot, etc. I'm still trying to figure out how much armor would cost - but that should get you a decent ship with something on the order of 36-40 guns. What's that? A smallish frigate?

[AIM-54]

Originally Posted by The_Universe

Just for the record, I did some figuring for a ship propelled by bound water elementals (which neatly sidesteps the issue of having steam power, and reduces/eliminates the need for sail, making iron-clad vessels more practical):

488,000 GP, not including the cost of armoring the thing. It does include the actual vessel, the bound elementals, cannon and shot, etc. I'm still trying to figure out how much armor would cost - but that should get you a decent ship with something on the order of 36-40 guns. What's that? A smallish frigate?

It's a bit smaller than the Constitution, which had 44 guns, but probably comparable as a frigate.

[Xath]

Originally Posted by The_Universe

Just for the record, I did some figuring for a ship propelled by bound water elementals (which neatly sidesteps the issue of having steam power, and reduces/eliminates the need for sail, making iron-clad vessels more practical):

488,000 GP, not including the cost of armoring the thing. It does include the actual vessel, the bound elementals, cannon and shot, etc. I'm still trying to figure out how much armor would cost - but that should get you a decent ship with something on the order of 36-40 guns. What's that? A smallish frigate?

Isn't this slavery? And if so, what are the moral implications of extraplanar slavery on the ringed continent?

[The_Universe]

Originally Posted by AIM-54

It's a bit smaller than the Constitution, which had 44 guns, but probably comparable as a frigate.

If I recall correctly, that would put it right at the size and armament for a regular frigate - the Constitution was very heavily armed for her classification, which meant that the British (and French, however briefly) ordered their captains not to commit frigates against ours, since we outgunned them. I have a copy of the text of one of the Birtish orders (demanding that commodore's commti nothing less than a ship of the line in battle) in my thesis, somewhere. Which is just a long way of saying that the Constitution and her sisters were actually Super - Frigates, if such a classification can be said to exist.

Originally Posted by Xath

Isn't this slavery? And if so, what are the moral implications of extraplanar slavery on the ringed continent?

I don't know - is it slavery? Is summoning an elmental or a monster extraplanar kidnapping? Do elementals count as free beings? Do they have minds and feelings, or do humanoids just project them onto the pseudo-creatures? Is it OK to summon them to fight in a war at your whim? Is it extraplanar theft every time a gatway is opened to the elemental plane of water, and fresh water flows from it?

It's up to you to split the philosophical hairs - people summon elementals. Some have even been bound for so long that they've remained here for thousands of years (like the ones you fought in Khaz Barok). Do you think it's apropriate?

Perhaps more importantly, can you think of a better way to propel a boat that doesn't require the sudden and unlikely discovery of steam power (which would undoubtedly be cheaper than magical elemental binding, anyway)?

[The_Universe]

On an unrelated real life note, if we can't play this weekend, maybe we could go up to the baltimore inner harbor and look at the ship they've got there - not an ironclad, but still interesting inspiration.

[Xath]

Originally Posted by The_Universe

I don't know - is it slavery? Is summoning an elmental or a monster extraplanar kidnapping? Do elementals count as free beings? Do they have minds and feelings, or do humanoids just project them onto the pseudo-creatures? Is it OK to summon them to fight in a war at your whim? Is it extraplanar theft every time a gatway is opened to the elemental plane of water, and fresh water flows from it?

It's up to you to split the philosophical hairs - people summon elementals. Some have even been bound for so long that they've remained here for thousands of years (like the ones you fought in Khaz Barok). Do you think it's apropriate?

Perhaps more importantly, can you think of a better way to propel a boat that doesn't require the sudden and unlikely discovery of steam power (which would undoubtedly be cheaper than magical elemental binding, anyway)?

I dunno. We "paid" the elemental we summoned. I was just wondering if there was a pre-standing viewpoint that the kingdom took.

As for other methods of propulsion, what about Quall's Feather Token (Fan). That's what it's there for. You could find a way to make a similar permanant item that could be activated at will, or just keep a stock of tokens on board.

[AIM-54]

Originally Posted by The_Universe

If I recall correctly, that would put it right at the size and armament for a regular frigate - the Constitution was very heavily armed for her classification, which meant that the British (and French, however briefly) ordered their captains not to commit frigates against ours, since we outgunned them. I have a copy of the text of one of the Birtish orders (demanding that commodore's commti nothing less than a ship of the line in battle) in my thesis, somewhere. Which is just a long way of saying that the Constitution and her sisters were actually Super - Frigates, if such a classification can be said to exist.

It's somewhat more complicated than that, as the Frigate classification goes up to ~60 guns and the power of a broadside can vary depending on the weight of the guns (long cannon/carronade and the variations therein). I believe the Constitution may have been originally built as a 44 gun ship, but could carry more (the FAS has it carrying 54 guns)

But that class of US frigate were generally more powerful than standard frigates, but our 40 gun ship would probably fall under a standard frigate designation.

[The_Universe]

Originally Posted by Xath

I dunno. We "paid" the elemental we summoned. I was just wondering if there was a pre-standing viewpoint that the kingdom took.

As for other methods of propulsion, what about Quall's Feather Token (Fan). That's what it's there for. You could find a way to make a similar permanant item that could be activated at will, or just keep a stock of tokens on board.

But then you still have to have sails, which limits (somewhat) the benefit of armoring your ship. All you have to do is knock down a mast, and she's dead in the water.

I'm sure you could permanence an item with "gust of wind" (another option I looked at) but I judged it to be not worth the cost - because you'd be back at the "if the enemy knocks down a mast, we're f'ed" scenario.*

In order to make an armored vessel with cannon work (and thus exploit your comparitive advantage) you need to have something that doesn't need sails to go.

*I'm sure because I looked it up.

[The_Universe]

Originally Posted by AIM-54

It's somewhat more complicated than that, as the Frigate classification goes up to ~60 guns and the power of a broadside can vary depending on the weight of the guns (long cannon/carronade and the variations therein). I believe the Constitution may have been originally built as a 44 gun ship, but could carry more (the FAS has it carrying 54 guns)

But that class of US frigate were generally more powerful than standard frigates, but our 40 gun ship would probably fall under a standard frigate designation.

I know in the Quasi-War with France, we had "Frigates" that fielded as many as 72 guns (though she was a bit sluggish). That's more in-line with what the "Super Frigate" comment was about.

Anyway, our The Lady Rhynn 40* should be safely in the realm of Frigatude. Agreed?

(You can name her whatever you want if you build her, but I thought it was better than just calling it "the ship")

[The_Universe]

I started a general thread about Ironclad propulsion here: How would you make a fantasy Ironclad "go?" . Peruse if you're interested.