Spell DC's

[capnfro]

I'm starting to run into a problem with my higher level party. Their saves are outpacing my NPC's save DC's. Most of the characters are 14th-15th level. They are also all experienced players. They make DC 23-25 saves most of the time with little difficulty.

I want to challenge them and with the uber tank (Dwarven Defender) its hard to do in melee. I nearly managed a TPK this weekend with incorporeal creatures but I don't want to abuse that. Besides Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus and ability boosting items any suggestions for upping spell DC's?

[Rapida]

Besides making the casters cast higher level spells there isn't much. Just wondering how good are the saves? Could I get some numbers please. Also don't be afraid for a mage to go after a wizard in fortitude saves and a reflex or will at a fighter. If things gets to bad just dont use spells that allow saves. I like scorching ray (kind of low level but still good damage).

[Mr_GrinReaper]

School specializations are your friend, or spells/abilitys that give a penalty to saves, also the complete arcane suplement has a few ways to beef up DC's...

Can't think of any other ways off the top of my head though...

[ChaosEvoker]

Simply give the characters items that beef up the DCs.

[themind]

Or use spells that don't have saving throws. Such as, Word of Chaos or Law. Which ever one of those alignments you have less of in the party and much fun ensues, well on your part at least.

Many other spells that dont require saving throws.

Especially at level 15, they could possibly come accross an equal level wizard with a Polar Ray spell or 2.

[capnfro]

The thing that really brought this to life for me is my two NPC's that I am about to throw at my characters. They are both 15th level Masters of the Unseen Hand. The save on their telekinesis spell is a 23. For most parties that would be a decent save to try to make but it doesn't seem so with these guys.

I like the idea about giving them magic items to increase the DC's. I may also be targeting the wrong characters with the wrong spells. I'm not real good with spells. Give me a rogue any day.

The Word spells are good too. I'll have to look at them more closely.

Thanks for all the input guys!

[XCorvis]

Don't forget about the Heighten Spell feat - cast those debilitating curses as your highest level spell, then use lower level stuff when their save bonuses are reduced.

You can also try a Dispel Magic against their save-boosting items to knock them out for a few rounds.

One of my players always chooses his spells so that he can force his opponents to make whatever type of save he needs - he's got offensive spells that rely on fort, reflex and will saves. He just guesses at their class (heavy armor = poor reflex) and whacks them with the appropriate spell.