Pilot - Vehicle interactions (reflex saves & others)

[BlackJaw]

One of the ideas we are currently working under is that Vehicles should work creatures/monsters in almost always... thus if something affects a vehicle it should affect vessels (IE: dragons similarly.) Example: armor class is not modified by manuveribilty. If we did that then dragons and griffons, etc all would no longer match their stats in the core rules.

We've continued with this theory and guidline into vehicle rules. Basicaly vessels are a "creatures" that fly. "creature" is being used losely, and includes objects that arn't otherwise alive (IE: constructs that are not magicaly animated, but mechanicaly etc). Vehicles are a special form of vessel that can not fly themselves (IE: they use & need pilots because they have no Dex score). Under this theory we've simply asumed that most things work like creatures (creatures that happen to commonly have many HD, and no INT, WIS, CHA, or CON scores) in as far as saving throws and the like. Example: Constructs generaly are immune to Fort saves unless the effect being saved for can directly target objects... like disentagrate. Targeting that spell at a vehicle would require a Fort save based on the vehicle's HD. For reflex saves this becomes more complicated. Our running rules would require the vehicle generaly fails all Reflex saves (it has no Dex) or make them based off HD. both these two options are fairly stupid. aut-fail doesn't make sense for a vehicle becasuse alhtough it lacks a Dex score, it does move and could dodge. Also, giving it a score based of HD doesn't work well because the save bonus goes up with vehicle HD (and therefore with vehicle size) and the result is larger vehicles dodging better. My idea on this subject is for the vehicle to use the Pilot's Reflex save modified by either the Handling modifier (IE: how easy to fly is the vehicle) or its Turn Modifier (IE: a modifier version of the manuveribilty rating). Keep in mind that letting the Reflex save in means people will also want to use their character's Evasion and Improved Evasion powers. (no damage on saves and half damage on failures respectively).

Also we need to decide what Effects/powers/spells/feats/class features/etc a pilot has affect the vehicle as a whole. As always, a set of simple rules is better then a blow by blow list. I'd say Insight bonuses apply (you know where the attack will be before it's there. Also this isn't something could enchant the vehicle to have on its own.), as would maybe Dodge bonuses (which is what the dodge feat uses, as do spells or affects that increase a character reflexes... but if we arn't letting the pilot's Dex modifier in, then why Dodge? Don't you lose dodge bonuses whenever you are denied your Dexterity modifier? Dodge stacks with other dodge bonuses... way to easy to abuse. On the other hand dodge bonuses would seem better if applied to the pilot instead of the vehicle itself.)

One last comment on not having Pilot Dex apply to the vehicle: this means that a pilot with a dexterity of 30 and pilot with a dexterity of 3, both in identicle vehicles, are equaly easy to hit unless they are in a complex stunt of some kind. As far as stunts go; because you never get a penelty to armor class through the stunt, characters with bad Dexterity scores will never have that Dex penelty to their AC... even if they can't make that Stunt check.

I'm wondering if we should take tip from the core D&D and say that normaly a pilot (if he is aware of an attack) is considered to be flying to avoid being hit/targeted (much like if your aware of an attack your considered attempting to duck out of the way) and stunts that boost armor class (like the complex stunt) are something above and beyond just nromal dodging. In otherwords allowing Dex modifiers and Dodge bonuses to apply from the pilot to his vehicle. (including Dex Penalties and maybe even the Monk Wisdom bonus, although I technicaly think it is an unnamed bonus.).

[barsoomcore]

First, let's think about reflex saves

Originally posted by BlackJaw
My idea on this subject is for the vehicle to use the Pilot's Reflex save modified by either the Handling modifier (IE: how easy to fly is the vehicle) or its Turn Modifier (IE: a modifier version of the manuveribilty rating). Keep in mind that letting the Reflex save in means people will also want to use their character's Evasion and Improved Evasion powers. (no damage on saves and half damage on failures respectively).

I think I agree. Let's use Handling Modifiers rather than Turn Modifiers since again, creatures have Turn Modifiers and should logically get that bonus as well as vehicles. Since we're agreed we don't want to force a change to the published stats of creatures, we can't use the Turn modifier here.

What about sail-powered vessels? Are they piloted via Dexterity?

Also we need to decide what Effects/powers/spells/feats/class features/etc a pilot has affect the vehicle as a whole.

Here are the bonus types and my thoughts. Keep in mind we are talking about bonuses the pilot possesses and whether or not they apply to the vessel's AC or Reflex Save. List taken from DMG, page 177.

Armour: No
Circumstance: No
Competence: Yes
Deflection: No
Dodge: Maybe
Enhancement to AC: No
Enhancement to Dex: Yes
Enlargement: No
Haste: No
Inherent: Yes
Insight: Yes
Luck: Yes
Morale: Yes
Natural Armour: No
Profane: Yes
Resistance: No
Sacred: Yes
Synergy: Yes

I'm wondering if we should take tip from the core D&D and say that normaly a pilot (if he is aware of an attack) is considered to be flying to avoid being hit/targeted

That's an excellent point, and one that sways me a good deal to your argument. Okay, I think I might be sold on this.

Here's what I think we agree on:

If a vehicle is targetted by an effect requiring a Reflex Save, the pilot makes the save using his normal bonus (subject to the above type restrictions) plus the vehicle's Handling Modifier.

A vehicle's AC is determined by starting at 10, applying the Size Modifier, the Handling Modifier and the pilot's AC bonuses (subject to type restrictions above).

I still worry about applying this to sailing vessels. Thoughts?

[i]EDIT: added note about Turn Modifiers applying to creatures.

[BlackJaw]

aquatic sailing vessels also have ruddes (in most cases) and the single "pilot at the wheel" can therefore vary the movements of craft in motion, making it harder to hit, and make drastic changes in course to avoid collisions. Also look at it this way: characters with high AC saves are generaly heros laden with magic items. This is a game of heroics and a hero at the helm of a vehicle should be hard to hit. Your average level 3 NPC expert (IE: a pilot of normal average/skill) won't have much going for him, but heroes do magicaly empowered John Woo style dodges from arrows and sword strikes, and much of that amazing speed and reactions would transfer over even into the manipulation of rigging on a sailing vehicle.

Again: keep in mind that the orginal intention of the reflex save was that it would move you out of the area of effect on a succesful save, and that was removed after playtesting and people used "friendly fireballs" to move mid-high level rogues around outside of their turns/actions. Essentialy the reflex save doens't make a lot of sense as it is currently implimented because it was changed drasitcaly for game balence reasons. We are now building off that non-intutive game mechanic. If it doesn't make a lot of sense, well that's because it didn't before hand.

[Wyvern]

Why wouldn't haste bonuses apply to vessel AC? If the pilot can react more quickly to avoid blows, shouldn't that transfer to the vessel?

I *don't* think that evasion should transfer to vessel Reflex saves. However, the Pilot class in DragonStar, which I've modified for the Cosmonomicon, has a Pilot Evasion ability of its own.

As far as sailing vessels and so on are concerned, I still hold that Wis makes more sense for Pilot checks, but I'm quite willing to agree to adding the Dex modifier to AC and Reflex saves.

Wyvern

[barsoomcore]

Originally posted by Wyvern
Why wouldn't haste bonuses apply to vessel AC? If the pilot can react more quickly to avoid blows, shouldn't that transfer to the vessel?

You're quite right. Haste bonuses should apply.

I *don't* think that evasion should transfer to vessel Reflex saves. However, the Pilot class in DragonStar, which I've modified for the Cosmonomicon, has a Pilot Evasion ability of its own.

Sold. A pilot's Evasion special ability has no affect when making Reflex saves for the vessel.