Just when Erica figures out Dire Animals...

ColonelHardisson · 18th February 2002, 04:06 AM

...WotC tosses Legendary Animals at us in Masters of the Wild - with, of course, no template.

I like the whole concept of Legendary Animals, though, and immediately thought of a number of uses for them.

And hey, I like the Dire Elephant and Horse, too...

Pale · 18th February 2002, 05:34 AM

Dammit. dammit, dammit!

WHY did they not use a template?!? I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and said that if they had any brains at all, they would make the legendary animals a template. He said that they wouldn't, because then they wouldn't be able to pad page count with examples of legendary animals. I retorted that he was being too cynical. I hate being wrong.

So which is it? Are they stupid or greedy?

Gish Makai · 18th February 2002, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pale
So which is it? Are they stupid or greedy?

perhaps both

Pale · 18th February 2002, 09:50 AM

There's always that possibility, yes.

Hand of Vecna · 18th February 2002, 03:32 PM

WotC is owned by Hasbro, which is known to be stupid & greedy...

DnDChick · 19th February 2002, 12:30 AM

But Colonel...I didn't figure out dire animals...I made my own template that got as close as possible.

My dire template doesnt really come close to letting you make any of the dire animals in the MM by using the base animal stats in the back of the book.

ColonelHardisson · 19th February 2002, 03:14 AM

Yep, I realize that, it's just that you came a damned sight closer to giving us something to work with than WotC. I'm simply baffled as to why they didn't make Dire and Legendary Templates. As much as I think Templates have been overused, especially by WotC, these seem to be naturals.

**Grazzt** · 19th February 2002, 03:45 AM

I'm with the Colonel on this one. They can give us the lovely Drider template:rolleyes: but no Dire or Legendary Creature template?

BOZ · 19th February 2002, 04:47 AM

LOL drider template :rolleyes:

i hear ya scotty. dire template would rock, but i think erica's got about as best as we're gonna get.

**Grazzt** · 19th February 2002, 08:21 AM

I agree with ya Boz-man. Erica hit it right on with the Dire template. I used it the other nite to throw a Dire Bison at my players.....

nasty nasty......

MythandLore · 19th February 2002, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pale
Dammit. dammit, dammit!

So which is it? Are they stupid or greedy?

Quote:

Originally posted by Gish Makai
perhaps both

Yeah I agree.

Quote:

Originally posted by Hand of Vecna
WotC is owned by Hasbro, which is known to be stupid & greedy...

Very.

Quote:

Originally posted by DnDChick
But Colonel...I didn't figure out dire animals...I made my own template that got as close as possible.

My dire template doesnt really come close to letting you many any of the dire animals in the MM by using the base animal stats in the back of the book.

Yeah it's not like the MM dire animals were well thought out in the first place though.
I like your template better, and it's much more useful, they should have made Dire a template in the first place.
I can't wait to see you take a shot at the legendaries.

I know you wont disapoint.

Quote:

Originally posted by Grazzt
They can give us the lovely Drider template:rolleyes: but no Dire or Legendary Creature template?

But I use the Drider template all the t... Never.
Never ever.
Never never ever, what were they thinking?

herald · 19th February 2002, 02:14 PM

I'd expect that they will have it in the Monster Manual 2.

jester47 · 19th February 2002, 05:45 PM

I threw this one by Monte Cook, and he explained why they did not make a Dire Template, and he has some other things to add too:

jester47
Registered User
(2/18/02 7:59:14 pm)
Reply | Edit Monte- Question about templates in the MM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some people have been wondering over at d20reviews.com what the reasoning was for not using a Dire template in the MM. The argument is such that they figure that the Dire and Legendary creatures should be based in a template. Also, why was there not a skeleton template?

Aaron Webb

Monte Cook
ezOP
(2/19/02 1:13:52 am)
Reply
Community Supporter
Re: Monte- Question about templates in the MM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was never our intention to make "dire" a template because it was never our intention for the list of dire creatures to grow appreciably. There is a point, I think, where modularity can go too far. (I wouldn't want to see, for example, dire pigeons or dire rabbits.) The whole purpose of "dire" was to get some animals into a higher CR range so that druid and ranger abilities didn't just suck after 6th level or so.

The skeleton thing--I'm with you on that one. There should have been a skeleton and zombie template. Jonathan put one on the wizards' website. I myself put some different kinds of undead templates in an upcoming Wizards book (yes, THAT one).
Monte
http://www.montecook.com

So there you have it! It was not Greed or stupidity, but rather they were simply making a design choice!

happy boarding.

ColonelHardisson · 19th February 2002, 06:34 PM

The list of Dire animals grew appreciably in Masters of the Wild. OK, so Monte is no longer with WotC, but many of the 3e design team is still there.

I think it's a screw-up in thinking, and shows a lack of humor. So what if a Dire template could be used to make Dire rabbits? How does that hurt anything? What, they couldn't stand the thought of people having fun?

"Thou shalt not inject humor into thy game."

"Please sit quietly with your hands folded as we now run the combat."

"Those laughing will be asked to leave."

Alright, that part of the rant is over, but I still don't understand the reasoning.

First, they should have known, given the foresight they seemed to have with a lot of other things, that players would want Dire animals that were not in the Monster Manual - where were the Dire crocodiles? That seems as logical as a Dire bear, since prehistoric crocodiles like deinosuchus really did achieve enormous proportions, while even the cave bear never came close to the size of the Dire bear as pictured in the MM.

Second, a Dire template could have allowed a lot of the "giant" animals from earlier editions to be easily converted. Giant frogs are a good example; there are Dire toads in masters of the Wild. Even if they didn't like the thought of Dire frogs during game design, the fact that giant frogs were such a staple of 1e/2e should have prompted them to include them in the Dire animal section.

Third, it really does seem like they simply didn't think Dire beavers and the like were "cool," based on the comment about Dire rabbits. That was a poor call on their part.

I like Monte's work - he's one of a handful of designers whose stuff I buy sight unseen - but the reasoning behind the Dire/Legendary creatures is something with which I disagree.

jester47 · 19th February 2002, 09:06 PM

I would send emails to WotC customer service indicating that you want a Dire/Legendary animal template. The reason for this is that they do give input to the R&D guys and enough demand would make it appear. If you want it in the MM2, I would do it now as the thing is probably about to go into playtesting. But who knows.

Granted if they do develop a template for either of these, you can bet that some of the monsters will be different (like a Dire Wolf and a Template Dire Wolf) because there was not a "formula" for making a Dire animal. If there was then they would have had a template.

Aaron

Krishnath · 20th February 2002, 12:53 AM

making non-'template' direanimals is easy. Just advance the choosen creature to max HD, add one HD, give the creature on or two extraordinary abilities (such as the dire rats disease), increase the size by one catagory, and presto, instant dire animal. What's so hard about that?.

jester47 · 20th February 2002, 03:49 AM

And where were you forthe last 14 messages?

Aaron

**Grazzt** · 20th February 2002, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krishnath
making non-'template' direanimals is easy. Just advance the choosen creature to max HD, add one HD, give the creature on or two extraordinary abilities (such as the dire rats disease), increase the size by one catagory, and presto, instant dire animal. What's so hard about that?.

Because it still doesnt mimic the way WotC did it in the MM. The Dire Lion for example, is the same size as the normal lion (both are Large). Also, a lot of animals (the rat comes to mind) can't advance (in the sense that they have no advanement range).

**el-remmen** · 20th February 2002, 03:49 PM

I just make normal animals one or two size categories bigger. . .It has seemed to work for me - sure it is not "the perfect template" - but it works well enough.

Hand of Vecna · 20th February 2002, 11:38 PM

I for one would like to see Dire Rabbits -- that way I could remake Night of the Lepus!!!