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Old 8th April 2003, 10:24 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Feedback on components

I've been distracted the last couple of weeks, so I haven't made much progress on Chapter 7. I did finish reading through the components list, though, and made notes in the process, which I expand on below. It's a long list, so there are a lot of notes; don't feel like you have to read and respond to them all in one sitting. Btw, these are notes on BlackJaw's original components list, not Barsoomcore's modified versions, so some comments may no longer apply.

Before I get into commenting on specific items, there are a few general concerns that I've become aware of while working on vehicle designs:

1) The rule that maneuverability points must be above zero is impractical given that the only components that give manueverability points are sails and engines. It would be impossible to constuct a glider, for example, using the system as written. Also, when designing a flying saucer, I had to put all the "engine points" into manueverability and lift at the expense of speed. Suggested solution: make poor or average manueverability the default and assign clumsy manueverability to any vehicle (regardless of size) that has negative manueverability points.

2) The formula for calculating minimum speed as a percentage of base speed is broken. The lift score as a percentage of the hit dice equates to the minimum speed as a percentage of a base speed, for values of less than 100%. The upshot of this is that the higher the lift score, the faster the vessel has to travel to stay in the air. This is exactly the opposite of what it ought to be. Suggested solution: subtract the calculated percentage from the base speed to find the minimum speed. For example, if the lift score is equal to 80% of the hit dice, the minimum speed is 20% of the base speed.

3) Finally, the maximum possible speed of 360 ft/round given on the chart works out to about 40 mph. So it's impossible to build any kind of airplane, let alone a spaceship, using this system. Related to this problem are the fact that it's impossible for a Fine vehicle (which is man-sized, remember) to have a base speed of less than 210 ft/round. Finally, it doesn't make much sense that you have to double your speed points to increase your speed by one increment. Suggested solution: throw out the table and calculate speed using a formula based on size. For example:

Fine: Base speed = speed points x 120'
Diminutive: Base speed = speed points x 60'
Tiny: Base speed = speed points x 30'
Small: Base speed = (speed points/2) x 30'
Medium: Base speed = (speed points/4) x 30'

...and so on. These are just suggested values; you may want to tinker with them to find the best balance.

Okay, on to the comments and questions on specific components:

Arrays

- The description of the solar array says that "Most artificial light, or magic light, is not bright enough to constitute full power from an array." Does this include the daylight spell?

- The power return in low-light/magic/psychic conditions ought to be consistent for different-sized arrays. As written, it's 1/3 of the total for small arrays and 1/2 for medium-sized and small arrays. Suggested solution: make it 1/3 for all sizes. (I would suggest 1/2, but that would give a value of 3/2 for small arrays.)

- While I like the fact that you can fold up a solar array, I find it hard to imagine how you'd fold up an psychic array, since it's made of crystals.

Power Jammers

- I don't like the assumption that the person providing power is the same as the pilot. I've designed a "mindlink" component (which I'll post later) that gives a pilot a handling bonus by allowing him to control the vessel with his thoughts. You could build one into a power jammer at extra expense, but you could also have a pilot's wheel instead of, or in addition to, the jammer.

- It isn't clear from the description if an arcane jammer requires already-prepared spells, or if it can use up empty spell slots. In the former case, a sorcerer wouldn't be able to use one at all. In the latter case, they'd be able to fuel one for much longer than a wizard of equal level.

- I don't think it makes sense for the Use Magic/Psionic Device skill on a jammer. Those skills allow you to "trick" a magic item by pretending to be someone you're not, but if you use them to power a jammer, where is the power coming from?

Other Power Systems

- Some non-technological examples of generators would be nice. For example, magic item furnaces or crystal capacitors.

- Should tech level affect the efficiency of generators/reactors?

- Refueling a reactor should cost less than the original outlay; it costs less to make plutonium fuel rods than to build a whole nuclear reactor.

- Given how quickly a reserve power system can be filled up or depleted, it should have a larger capacity to really be worthwhile.

- Should tech level affect the capacity of reserve power systems?

Engines

- How can an engine increase glide manueverability and speed? If a vehicle's gliding, then it doesn't have its engines on.

- Should tech level affect engine efficiency?

- Do additional engines have a different effect from increasing the size of a single engine? The way I'm reading it, an extra engine provides an additional +1 to speed points and +2 to lift points, but also requires more power. Is this an accurate evaluation?

Other Propulsion Systems

- Should hot-air balloons have a handling penalty?

- Does wind speed affect hot air baloons and dirigibles? What about applying a manueverability penalty to all aerial vehicles based on wind speed?

- Can sky ore be built into a metal hull or armor plating without taking up component slots?

Life Support

- Should efficiency of life support depend on tech level?

- What happens if life support fails? What are the "detrimental effects"?

- Should gravity generators be treated as a separate component?

- Should gardens provide more food at higher tech levels? Shouldn't low-tech gardens be able to operate without power? (Think of a garden planted in the courtyard of a flying castle.)

- What's the result of a failed Fortitude save in the case of power loss to a hibernation chamber?

Teleport Matrix

- Why such large jumps between DCs (25, 35, 45, 60)? Couldn't a more gradual progression be used? Make a table if necessary. (Likewise for wormhole tunnerers.)

- What if you're only going a few hundred miles instead of light years?

- 1d100 x 1,000 miles off-target isn't that much on a galactic scale... the distance from the earth to the moon is 240,000 miles. Perhaps 1d100 x one million miles would be better? That's still easily within the same solar system.

- How about masterwork matrices that reduce the Navigate DC?

- You can't take 10 or 20 on your Navigate check when you're using a planar matrix; what about when you're using a teleport matrix?

Other Drive Systems

- A space folding drive "can not be activated near any large bodies of gravity". How near is "near"?

- Do planar matrices have charges?

- Saying that gates are of unknown origin is a setting assumption that may not always be applicable. What if you're playing in the Babylon 5 setting, for example?

Command Systems

- If a spacecraft doesn't have a cockpit, does that mean that the pilot is more exposed? Even if the hull is a solid shell of metal?

- Sonar should be opposed by Hide, not Move Silently... it doesn't matter how quiet you are, it matters how large your exposed surface is.

- The description of detection arrays and force field generators make reference to Engineering checks. There is no skill by that name.

Cargo

- The description of cargo bays says that "Only cargo is counted for this rating." What does that mean?

- Does an empty cargo bay (fuel tank, hanger) still impose a lift penalty?

- How much is "one slot" of fuel? It might be helpful to give a concrete value for purposes of determing fuel cost and so on.

Defensive Systems

- Shouldn't larger craft require more slots for the same amount of armor?

- You should clarify that the "size modifier" listed under defensive and weapon components refers to their AC modifier for purposes of called shots; I thought at first that it was supposed to be an AC modifier to the vessel as in the case of sails, dirigibles, etc..

- Does a deflection array provide protection against force attacks (e.g. magic missile) and ethereal creatures?

- The base vehicle size covered by a deflection array is 10 HD; for most of the other defense systems it's 20 HD. Is this difference deliberate or a typo?

Weapon Systems

- Why are there heavy catapults and cannon but no heavy ballistas?

- How much ammo does a cannon/ballista/catapult carry?

- 75 is an excessively large number of people to fit on a deck that only takes up 3 slots. Remember that a Diminutive vessel 8-16 ft long can have up to 7 hit dice. Picture a 16-ft Viking longboat with a single mast; according to the rules, that leaves enough deck space to fit 150 people!

- "Due to the exposure, spell casting from the open deck of a moving
vehicle does require a concentration check." What's the DC?

- If grappling arms and melee claws can be magically animated, why would they consume power?

- What are the rules for firing multiple missiles at the same time? The rules say that any number of missiles can be fired in a round with a single targeting roll, but then it says that firing a single missile is a standard action.

- What are the base damage, range increment and save DC of a missile?
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Old 9th April 2003, 12:28 AM   #2 (permalink)
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component tech levels

Here are the (tentative) tech and magic levels that I've figured for the various components.

Giant Spring: Engineering 3+

Monstrous Generator: Engineering 2+

Array Mount: Engineering 1+

Solar Array: Physics 6+

Magic Array: Evocation 3+

Psychic Array: Psychokinesis 3+

Power Jammer: Evocation 3+ or Psychokinesis 3+

Generator: Engineering 4+ or Evocation 1+ or Psychokinesis 1+

Reactor: Physics 5+ or Evocation 3+ or Psychokinesis 3+

Reserve Power System: Engineering 3+ or Chemistry 4+ or Evocation 1+ or Psychokinesis 1+

Power Converter: Varies

Vehicle Engine: Varies

Sail Rigging: Engineering 1+

Small Wind Sails: Engineering 1+

Medium Wind Sails: Engineering 2+

Large Wind Sails: Engineering 3+

Solar Sails: Physics 6+ or Evocation 5+

Astral Sails: Psychoportation 2+

Hot Air Balloon: Engineering 3+

Dirigible Mount: Engineering 3+

Dirigible: Engineering 4+

Sky Ore: Transmutation 0+ (potential)

Life Support: Engineering 4+ and Biomedical 3+, or Transmutation 1+

Food Stores: No tech or magic requirements

Air Envelope Seals: Abjuration 2+ or Psychokinesis 2+

Recycler: Engineering 5+ or Transmutation 0+

Hydroponic/Garden: Biomedical 2+

Hibernation Chambers: Biomedical 7+ and Engineering 5+

Space Folding: Physics 8+

Teleport Matrix: Transmutation 5+ or Psychoportation 5+

Planar Matrix: Transmutation 7+ or Psychoportation 7+

Hyperspace/Astral Drive: Physics 8+ or Transmutation 7+ or Psychoportation 7+

Warp Drive: Physics 8+ or Transmutation 7+ or Psychoportation 7+

Wormhole Tunneler: Physics 8+ or Transmutation 7+ or Psychoportation 7+

Wormhole Shield: Physics 7+ or Abjuration 6+

Gate Activator
Physics 8+ or Transmutation 7+ or Psychoportation 7+ (for gate itself)
Engineering 6+ or Evocation 5+ or Psychoportation 5+ (for activator)

Cockpit: No tech or magic requirements

Bridge Deck: No tech or magic requirements

Automation Node: Engineering 4+ or Electronics 6+ or Transmutation ?

Auto-pilot System: Electronics 5+ (6+ for masterwork)

Communications Transceiver
Radio: Electronics 5+
Laser: Electronics 6+ and Physics 6+
Sonic: Electronics 5+
Magic: as equivalent spell
Psionics: as equivalent power

Detection Array
Radar: Electronics 5+
Sonar: Electronics 5+
Energy Detector: Electronics 6+
Psionics Detector: Clairsentience 0+
Thought Detector: Divination 2+ or Telepathy 2+

Cargo Bay: No tech or magic requirements

Cargo Bay of Holding: Conjuration 4+ or Psychoportation 5+

Fuel Tank: Engineering 4+

Fuel Tank of Holding: Conjuration 4+ or Psychoportation 5+

Hanger: Engineering 3+

Runway: Engineering 3+ (5+ for masterwork)

Quarters: No tech or magic requirements

Brig: Engineering 2+

Armor Plate
Leather: Engineering 1+
Wood: Engineering 1+
Stone/Crystal: Engineering 1+
Iron: Engineering 4+
Steel: Engineering 5+
Metal Alloy: Engineering 5+
Mithral: ?
Adamantine: ?

Hull Reinforcement: Engineering 4+

Force Field Generator: Physics 8+ or Abjuration 4+

Shield Generator: Physics 8+ or Abjuration 1+

Deflection Array: Physics 8+ or Abjuration 2+

Energy Resistance: Physics 5+ or Abjuration 1+

Ballista: Engineering 2+

Catapult: Engineering 2+

Clockwork Ballista: Engineering 3+

Cannon, Light: Chemistry 3+ and Engineering 2+

Cannon, Heavy: Chemistry 3+ and Engineering 3+

Advanced Cannon
Laser cannon (fire): Electronics 6+ and Physics 7+
Ion cannon (electrical): Electronics 6+ and Physics 7+
Pulse cannon (sonic): Electronics 6+ and Physics 7+
Rail gun (bludgeoning): Electronics 5+ and Engineering 5+
Harpoon gun (piercing): Engineering 4+

Open Deck: No tech or magic requirements

Enclosed Deck: No tech or magic requirements

Force Enclosure: Abjuraton 3+

Assisted Targeting System: Electronics 6+

Turret: Engineering 2+

Ram: Engineering 1+

Missile Rack: Engineering 5+

Missile Tube: Engineering 5+

Tractor Gun: Engineering 4+

Point Defense: Engineering 5+

Wand Spike: Transmutation 3+

Grappling Arms: Engineering 3+ or Transmutation 2+

Melee Claws: Engineering 3+ or Transmutation 2+

Missile: Electronics 5+ or Transmutation 1+
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Old 9th April 2003, 05:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Wyvern -- you are responding to outdated information.

The only Components information that is currently "official" is the stuff posted in the "Ooh, look, Components!" thread. Don't bother with the other stuff as I am in the process of rewriting all the Components. Sorry it's taking as long as it has.
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Old 14th April 2003, 06:49 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Style points:

Most of the mechanics are way off as I was just off the cuffing them. Barsoomcore is working on that now. In fact he is rewriting all of it to be better. I will touch on some style points though, and answer some questions about what I was thinking.
------------
"- The description of the solar array says that "Most artificial light, or magic light, is not bright enough to constitute full power from an array." Does this include the daylight spell?"
I was being intentionaly vague here because to be spicific won't cover all options. A light spell or flash light won't help you, but if your DM thinks spell X is powerful enough, then it should work. I think the current rules (sage advice or something) on that spell says it can't kill vampires, etc, but oh well. Anyway, yah if I was DMing I'd let Daylight work based off how it is described, but I don't think its a useful think to write out all spells that could work.

"- While I like the fact that you can fold up a solar array, I find it hard to imagine how you'd fold up an psychic array, since it's made of crystals." I pictured it in my mind as a punch of think long crystals mounted in a mechanical set of arms like the arms in one fo those tiny umbrellas. when extended, they point outward in a massive tangle of finger like apendages (no sails or wide areas) with the crystals glowing. When folded up, the mechanical (think brushed metal or maybe brass/copper rounded metal gears and cables) system folds it up into a small area tucked into the hull, possibly under armor plates etc. Its a great thing for artwork concepts.

"- I don't like the assumption that the person providing power is the same as the pilot. I've designed a "mindlink" component (which I'll post later) that gives a pilot a handling bonus by allowing him to control the vessel with his thoughts. You could build one into a power jammer at extra expense, but you could also have a pilot's wheel instead of, or in addition to, the jammer." Cool idea. I was trying to stick to spelljammer to much, but I could see a magic (or psionic, or high tech) mental interface system (command system) and have it work with any of the jammer type devices.

"- It isn't clear from the description if an arcane jammer requires already-prepared spells, or if it can use up empty spell slots. In the former case, a sorcerer wouldn't be able to use one at all. In the latter case, they'd be able to fuel one for much longer than a wizard of equal level." It requries spell slots. All casters have spell slots. Wizards memorize into them, sorcerers expend them... anyway, yes a sorcerer would have more spots, but they are of lower level... anyway that's the nature of wizards and sorcerers. I'd imagine in a spell jammer setting low level sorcerers would be favored highers on ships.

"- I don't think it makes sense for the Use Magic/Psionic Device skill on a jammer. Those skills allow you to "trick" a magic item by pretending to be someone you're not, but if you use them to power a jammer, where is the power coming from?" Read the Use Magic device skill. You know some PC will want to use it to power a ship. We could make a rule about it one way or the other. I went with allowing it, but your right it doesn't work on many levels.

"- Some non-technological examples of generators would be nice. For example, magic item furnaces or crystal capacitors." Good flavor idea. we should list a few like that.

"- Should tech level affect the efficiency of generators/reactors?" cool idea. in a low tech area your generator barely puts out any power... cool.

"- Given how quickly a reserve power system can be filled up or depleted, it should have a larger capacity to really be worthwhile." The system is directly stollen from the Alternity game system. I was the king of designing interesting ships in that system, and my best ones all had reserve power systems designed to let you fire all your weapons at once, increase jump ranges, etc by tweaking the power output limits of the game. basicaly your limiting factors in many ways is power. if you up the power containtment to much you end up with way to much power on hand.

"- Should tech level affect the capacity of reserve power systems?" I'd say no off hand. Your power is there, and your limited in how you get it and how you use it, but I don't see having it as a problem.

"- How can an engine increase glide manueverability and speed? If a vehicle's gliding, then it doesn't have its engines on." You and your dang logic !

"- Should tech level affect engine efficiency?"
Style wise it makes sense, but engine's provide points that are then compared to a table for your speed. If you start chaning those points in game (not when building the ship) that means recalculating far to often to keep game play running fast.

"- Can sky ore be built into a metal hull or armor plating without taking up component slots?" No, that would wreck the balence in the system. Also I'd argue that you just can't add lift anywhere because it would rip the ship apart, a large amount of lift added hapazardly would be dangerous to stability and structure. Thus it has to have space. Also, sky ore is a concept taken in some ways from anohter EN world hosted sit. I think in that world the ore has to be heated to work (IE: furnaces) where as in another setting it might need a slight eletrical charge, etc. This component covers all that extra "space" and equipment.

"- Should efficiency of life support depend on tech level?" That might be pushing it. some systems are just stores of air etc... but recyclers that makes sense... but hydroponics (which cycles air and provides food etc) wouldn't.

"- What happens if life support fails? What are the "detrimental effects"?" I think the rules section describes what happens if you have no gravity, or are exposed to vacume. I think starvation and suffocation are in the DMG. I know heat/cold rules are.

"- Should gravity generators be treated as a separate component?" I could see that as being a good idea.

"- Should gardens provide more food at higher tech levels? Shouldn't low-tech gardens be able to operate without power? (Think of a garden planted in the courtyard of a flying castle.)" I'd say gardens shouldn't be so affected by tech levels. BUT your right that a low tech one wouldn't need power. a low tech one on space ship might have a large windows and get light from the sun instead of artificial lighting like i was thinking about when I wrote it.

"- Why such large jumps between DCs (25, 35, 45, 60)? Couldn't a more gradual progression be used? Make a table if necessary. (Likewise for wormhole tunnerers.)" Directly stollen from DragonStar. There should be an exponential increase in difficulty. short jumps are easy, long ones are extreamly hard. Epic level Dragonstar pilots won't want to make cross universe jumps.

"- A space folding drive "can not be activated near any large bodies of gravity". How near is "near"?" as close as your DM wants it to be. Hard rules don't work well in a game.

"- Do planar matrices have charges?" Most systems use power, although the DragonStar game has charged drive systems, so that might work as an alternative.

"- Saying that gates are of unknown origin is a setting assumption that may not always be applicable. What if you're playing in the Babylon 5 setting, for example?" In Babylon 5, the first gates were built by the ancients, then reversed enginnered and rebuilt, but still the core of the idea was that know one still around knows exactly how they work. Your right though, its a setting assumption.

"- If a spacecraft doesn't have a cockpit, does that mean that the pilot is more exposed? Even if the hull is a solid shell of metal?" Motorcycle VS car. Your not nesisarily more exposed, but you have to control the vehicle from the engines/etc directly instead from a seperate location setup for easier controls.

"- Sonar should be opposed by Hide, not Move Silently... it doesn't matter how quiet you are, it matters how large your exposed surface is." I was going for a wider use of skills then just hide and spot etc. I always liked those Submarine movies where the hunter sub has some guy with headphones on, and the other sub has everyone onboard holding their breath and trying not to make any noise at all.

"- Does an empty cargo bay (fuel tank, hanger) still impose a lift penalty?" Like I mentioned above, if you alter the number of points a system provides on the fly, you then have to recalculate on the fly. that really slows the game down. I was trying to provide a set penalty to stop that.

"- Does a deflection array provide protection against force attacks (e.g. magic missile) and ethereal creatures?" Deflection provides a deflection bonus. that bonus does work againts ethereal creatures as per the DMG... but it doesn't stop magic missiles. Those always hit.

"- The base vehicle size covered by a deflection array is 10 HD; for most of the other defense systems it's 20 HD. Is this difference deliberate or a typo?" I was thinking deflection is less powerful/advanced then sheild generation, so its smaller or soemthing. I was winging it afterall.

"- Why are there heavy catapults and cannon but no heavy ballistas?" The DMG has heavy catapults but not ballistas.

"- How much ammo does a cannon/ballista/catapult carry?" none? How ever much you buy? 1 "shot" at any given time? Good question.

"- "Due to the exposure, spell casting from the open deck of a moving
vehicle does require a concentration check." What's the DC?" I think its 15, as listed in the PHB in the skill section under concentration (for spellcasting from the deck of a ship).

"- If grappling arms and melee claws can be magically animated, why would they consume power?" Because in that case, the ship itself is all powered by magic (a magic generator system of some kind)... so you need to know how much magic everything uses. Magic is a power type.
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Old 15th April 2003, 06:23 AM   #5 (permalink)
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BlackJaw,

Good answers! A few clarifications on specific points:

- When I asked about this or that component functioning better at higher tech levels, I was referring to the tech level of the component, not the tech level of the cosmos it's operating in at a given time. For example, one would think that a high-tech engine would be more efficient, i.e. give you more bang for you buck than a low-tech one. This would be factored in during the design phase; you wouldn't have to recalculate anything on the fly.

- The reason I asked if planar matrices have charges is that they have a similar funtion to teleport matrices. The power listing for both components reads "special (magic or psionic)", but teleport matrices are described as having 50 charges when full, and nothing is said about charges for planar matrices.

- As far as sky ore is concerned, I think the balancing factor should be the additional cost involved. I don't think it needs to take up extra spaces as well.

- Regarding cockpits, I understand and agree with your reasoning concerning ease of control. What I was questioning is the concealment and cover that it grants. The problem with this rule is that it means that a spaceship submarine with a cockpit provides better protection to its pilot than one without, even though the pilot is completely enclosed in both cases. (The same applies to bridge decks.)

- I see what you're getting at concerning sonar, but I also think that a submarine should be able to avoid detection by hiding behind an underwater ridge, or turning to minimize its sonar shadow, and so on. I still hold that the check should be Listen vs. Hide, but perhaps a synergy bonus from Move Silently is appropriate. This raises a question, though: how do you calculate the Move Silently bonus of a ship?

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