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No difference, really. They're doing the same work - it's up to the publisher what he does with that work, whether that be print it, PDF it, burn it or whatever.
Originally posted by tensen I agree wholeheartedly with Morrus's statement.
As do I, but the sad reality is that PDF publishers pay a lot less than print. This is even in light of their (PDF publishers) reduced costs. To be fair, a 'successful' PDF sells a lot less than most print products, thus there isn't as much $ to go around.
I'd say $.03 at a minimum and that's on the low end. I'll stop now because I feel a rant coming on about quality, price, and the place for PDFs in the print industry.
Originally posted by Abulia As do I, but the sad reality is that PDF publishers pay a lot less than print. This is even in light of their (PDF publishers) reduced costs. To be fair, a 'successful' PDF sells a lot less than most print products, thus there isn't as much $ to go around.
I'd say $.03 at a minimum and that's on the low end. I'll stop now because I feel a rant coming on about quality, price, and the place for PDFs in the print industry.
I'd say start another thread where you discuss this. Since the PDF industry is in its infancy, now's a good time to put in your views.
And thanks tensen and Morrus for your comments!
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Last edited by Krug; 22nd April 2003 at 05:14 PM..
I know that I do not submit to companies that pay a different amount for pdf then they do for print. The reason being is that you get what you pay for, not you get what you pay for and what you intend on doing with that.
Originally posted by Krug I'd say start another thread where you discuss this. Since the PDF industry is in its infancy, now's a good time to put in your views.
Tell you what -- you start the thread and I'll drop in and participate. I've felt a rant on pay scale, open calls, and PDF costs coming on for sometime now.
Originally posted by Abulia As do I, but the sad reality is that PDF publishers pay a lot less than print. This is even in light of their (PDF publishers) reduced costs. To be fair, a 'successful' PDF sells a lot less than most print products, thus there isn't as much $ to go around.
I'd say $.03 at a minimum and that's on the low end. I'll stop now because I feel a rant coming on about quality, price, and the place for PDFs in the print industry.
You agreed with my statement and then said that PDF publishers pay a lot less than print? Um, I was saying that Dark Quest pays as mcuh as print. In fact in some areas I've compared with companies and I think I actually pay more then some of the print companies.
__________________ Dark Quest Games http://www.darkquest.com Upcoming Release: Crown Tales
Note: Yes, we are accepting submissions.
Originally posted by Mystic Eye This is a tad off topic but Drawmack, can you shoot me your email address? I have something for you based on a thread at Mortality.
Originally posted by tensen You agreed with my statement and then said that PDF publishers pay a lot less than print?
And…so? I agreed with Morrus' statement as well. The question was one of "How much should a company pay for writers of products that are intended for PDF distribution?" Morrus responded with "No difference, really. They're doing the same work - it's up to the publisher what he does with that work, whether that be print it, PDF it, burn it or whatever." I agree with that statement. Writers for print and PDF should be paid the same. I then expanded on that thought as to the cold reality that there is a disparity between what print and PDF authors get paid. I make almost double from my print publishers then from PDF publishers.
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Um, I was saying that Dark Quest pays as mcuh as print.
Actually, no you didn't. At least, not in this thread.
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In fact in some areas I've compared with companies and I think I actually pay more then some of the print companies.
I'm sure a lot of it is because you can't afford to pay a writer per word for PDF products...
Imagine the numbers from the other thread about number of PDF's sold....
I don't remember them all, but I'll take 150 products sold just as a 'random' number, but the math can be used with just about any of them.
I'm also going to 'assume' a selling price of $5, which is pretty common around the industry.
So that's $750, for which the distributor will take 20%, which leaves you with $600.
Add in art and stuff, and you're probably looking at between $100 and $150 for cover art and interior art. Since I've been choosing all low numbers, I'll use $100 for my math.
Down to $500. And this thing isn't edited or in layout. So let's go on the low side, and throw in $100 for that (I'm sure it CAN be much more, depending on the product).
$400.
Now, aside from posting press releases and word of mouth, you need to advertise. Inside this is also having a website up, possibly buying ad space here at EN World. Let's put a meager $50 in advertising for the whole project.
$350.
I've checked the word count on a few of the BETTER products out there, and I'm going to go on the extremely LOW side of 25,000 words.
Now we're down to 1.4 cents a word. Not horrible, but below average. Split that $350 between multiple writers, and the amount you're bringing home isn't much.
And this is doing it 'alone' and publishing your own stuff without a publishing house. It's also choosing most of the lowest costs associated with getting this product to market. This doesn't account for the software you have to purchase to MAKE the PDF if you do it alone, which can get really expensive very quickly...especially if you want it to be high quality.
Of course, you pitch to a publisher, and your margins will probably change a bit, depending on sales, and how established you are. Figure if you're starting out, you're lucky if you and your writers are going to split $200, but then again, you don't have to worry about any of the advertising and layout stuff, the publisher takes care of that...as well as advertising. Of course, if they have a highly established customer base, then maybe it might go up a little.
Originally posted by jezter6 I don't remember them all, but I'll take 150 products sold just as a 'random' number, but the math can be used with just about any of them.
Way too high. Looking at Phil Reed's sales number thread, he says Construct Mechanus has sold 150 as of 6/29. Well, CM is 75th on the ALL TIME sales list at RPGNow. So unless there was a sudden spike in it's sales, 150 is not a representative number of expected sales. Joe's Book of Enchantment took 5-6 months to reach that plateau and it's only 61st all time with 190 sales.
A better number would have been 80 or 100 which is the "best seller" number for PDFs.
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you're probably looking at between $100 and $150 for cover art and interior art.
That's also very low. I spent that much on the cover to Character Customization alone. And that amount again for the interior art. Earned it all back in the first 40 sales, which was the plan.
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I've checked the word count on a few of the BETTER products out there, and I'm going to go on the extremely LOW side of 25,000 words.
That is extremely low. My PDFs always break the 50,000 word barrier. (Though I also sell for more than $5.) Heck, my two-pagers clock in around 2,000 words each. By your count, I should be selling them for 40 cents each.
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Now we're down to 1.4 cents a word.
If you revise the sales number to 100 and the word count to a less extravagent 35,000, that number falls below 1 cent a word. (0.7 cents/word)
__________________ Joe Mucchiello, Head Honcho at Throwing Dice Games
Priority One: Fatherhood.
Priority Two: Sanity.
Down on the list: seemingly real close to releasing a notebook essential. It's in layout! Has been for months now. (Just nod politely so I won't cry about this.)
"I've never heard of the term Flavor lawyer..." -- Scribble
Like I said, I was using all very low estimates, except for sales...
Just to show that it's nowhere near 2 or even 3 cents a word.
Which, by using your 35k words analogy, would be about $700.
And if you're only selling 100 copies, you'd have to charge $7 each (actually 8 something to include the distributor cost), and that's without ANY art, advertising, etc, etc.
I think we are failing to look at one important factor here...us. We are for a decent percentage of us part the demand, the consumers and the end result in this industry.
If you want people to buy your PDF products, be prepared to spend some $ on thiers.
THATS whats going to keep the PDF industry going. If you havn't bought any PDF's, get cracking! As a community, we need to support each other. I'm not saying you should randomly pick a PDF and buy it, but if you've heard good things about a PDF, pick it up!
Go Gaming go!
__________________ Jesse Mohn www.jessemohn.com
Freelance Artist and Designer
Originally posted by jezter6 Like I said, I was using all very low estimates, except for sales...
Just to show that it's nowhere near 2 or even 3 cents a word.
Yes, but you came in at 1.4 cents a word. That's almost decent compared to 0.7 cents a word. And sales, of course, is the one factor you have no control over (well, little control over).
And to get back on topic, yes, PDF publishers SHOULD pay the same rate as print publishers. The reality is that they really can't. Not until PDFs start selling in the 300-500 range on average.
I asked James for some numbers and he says:
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Total # of d20 PDFs sold (non-free) = 33364
Total # of d20 PDF products (non-free) = 306
Average of 109 sales per d20 PDF.
__________________ Joe Mucchiello, Head Honcho at Throwing Dice Games
Priority One: Fatherhood.
Priority Two: Sanity.
Down on the list: seemingly real close to releasing a notebook essential. It's in layout! Has been for months now. (Just nod politely so I won't cry about this.)
"I've never heard of the term Flavor lawyer..." -- Scribble
I think a better way to pay an author is royalties. A percentage of net ensures that if the PDF sells well the author benefits. This is what I've started doing and the text remains the copyright of the author. If I get an offer from a print publisher to release something not written by myself the author will get an even bigger shot at money.
I don't think anyone's getting rich with PDF projects but I know it's an excellent way for new authors to get some exposure.
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