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I like Holtz ... as the the villain I love to hate.
I wonder what will happen to Wesley? The fact that he played a part in the abduction, even though he did not know Holtz's true intent or plan, basically spell the end of his character once "daddy" Angel get his hands wrapped around his neck.
I would do that if my child has been abducted, first-degree murder with the possbility of a death penalty in Texas (that is, if I was living there) be damned.
It would be interesting ... and tragic ... to see if the prophecy translated by Wesley will come to fruition. I can see Holtz training the child to become a Vampire Hunter ... like Blade?
Speaking of Blade, the next sequel is coming out pretty soon ... March 22.
P.S. That misguided vampire hunter girl who got into the trade because her twin sister was killed by a vampire? Lose her, as well as the actress.
__________________ Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...
My philosophy is "you don't need me to tell you how to play -- I'll just provide some rules and ideas to use and get out of your way." --Monte Cook
And what's that time-hopping demon's problem anyway?
Sheesh! What an attitude! The way he treated Angel you'd think that the demon was abandoned by his father as a child and left to survive in a hell dimension with a demented mentor or something.
Hmmm....
__________________ Wolfspider
Founder of BADD - Bothered About Disposable Dragons
"Provide evidence of this claim, or retract it because it's a dishonest statement." -- Mourn, laying down the law
"The sins of the previous edition don't excuse the sins of the next." -- Kamikaze Midget, giving words to my thoughts
Originally posted by Ranger REG I would do that if my child has been abducted, first-degree murder with the possbility of a death penalty in Texas (that is, if I was living there) be damned.
Yes, but then, your child doesn't smell like food to you. (I hope.)
Wes was doing what he thoguht was right - even if he wasn't. And in doing so, he played right into the hands of one of the oldest plot devices since Oedipus Rex - Self-Fulfilling Prophecy.
see www.scoopme.com for a really great forum on both Buffy and Angel. Some of the most intelligent discussion on the web about these shows.
__________________ Member of B.A.D.D. -- Bothered About Disposable Dragons
Official Junk-Kicker and Wallet-Taker of the O.M.L.F.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
It would be interesting ... and tragic ... to see if the prophecy translated by Wesley will come to fruition. I can see Holtz training the child to become a Vampire Hunter ... like Blade?
The thing is Wesley was misguided. Remember he had translated it wrong. The true translation was that the father would devour the son.
By the time Wesley took Connor the prophecy had already come true and passed, the laced blood.
Besides if it came down to Angel killing Connor or vice versa I think Angel would let Connor kill him.
I do have a question though. What are the exact conditions that unleash Angelis? Is it possible that if they do get Connor back safe and sound that Angel's love of a father for his son could trigger the change?
Originally posted by Seaver I do have a question though. What are the exact conditions that unleash Angelis? Is it possible that if they do get Connor back safe and sound that Angel's love of a father for his son could trigger the change?
Angel will forever revert to Angelis if he experiences a moment of true happiness, his curse will be broken and his soul will depart. This happened when he slept with Buffy. Ms. Calendar was able to find the origional curse that made him into Angel before he killed her and Willow than re-cursed him.
I suppose that a fathers love might have the same effect as the moment of clouds and rain, but given how much is going on it is likely that any happiness Angel feels is going to be tempered by a deep fear for his son's future.
It would be interesting if the demon turns out to be Connor. I liked this episode but I do hope Wes lives because I getting to like him. I do wish Cordelia would get back soon.
The time-hopping demon might be Conner? It's possible.
Oh, no. Temporal migraine again.
So, Holtz jump into the netherworld and yet that demon still exist. Even if the demon is Conner, why go through all that trouble to have his younger self killed? Maybe he is cursed with immortality that goes along with that ooglie face.
__________________ Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...
My philosophy is "you don't need me to tell you how to play -- I'll just provide some rules and ideas to use and get out of your way." --Monte Cook
My theory is that the demon is just an angry demon, although it does maybe sound like it could be Connor. Maybe he is angry because of something that an alternite Angel did in a different dimmension, or he could BE an alternate angel, or an alternate connor, bent on destroying not just his alternate father, but ALL his fathers. But the secret plot twist is that the demon went back in time, and gave whoever wrote the book a bunch of false prophesies, and that they are not really real, but set in motion the demons secret plans. My other theory is that it is not Angel "the father" who will devour, or kill, Connor, but it is his other "father" Holtz, who said he would "treat him like his own son." That would be evil!
HEY! maybe the demon is Holtz himself! it would sort of make sense.
__________________ [Living ENWorld] Currently Playing Milo Bottleshanks setting out from the Red Dragon Inn(Start of "Tiggle's Order")
If Sarjhan IS Holtz, then he would not have been so surprised that his previous self did not follow through on the plans.
Sarjhan being Connor also doesn't make sense since we are given clear evidence (and NOT just when Sarjhan is talking to others. But when he's supposedly talking to himself) that he wants to kill Connor -- and if he IS Connor... then he would already know he survived.
I'm not sure who he is -- or even if that's a question we are supposed to be asking (or might get an answer)
Any answer doesn't make a lot of sense... Because of the time traveling aspect. Sarjhan would know what does and does not work and thus wouldn't be so surprised at the end that Holtz jumped into the portal with the kid.
Personally, I think Sarjhan ran into Angel in the future and his time sense is a bit messed up. So he got angry Angel didn't remember him because he doesn't quite realize that Angel hasn't met him yet.
(MAybe, because of this incident, the "First" time Sarjhan met Angel, Angel was not that happy with him and thus fought him, hurting him badly and making him want to get back at Angel -- though why this involves killing Connor I'm not sure i admit.)
The thing is Wesley was misguided. Remember he had translated it wrong. The true translation was that the father would devour the son.
By the time Wesley took Connor the prophecy had already come true and passed, the laced blood.
Besides if it came down to Angel killing Connor or vice versa I think Angel would let Connor kill him.
I do have a question though. What are the exact conditions that unleash Angelis? Is it possible that if they do get Connor back safe and sound that Angel's love of a father for his son could trigger the change?
IMHO this is a MAJOR flaw of this season. Angel is happier and more content than when he was with Buffy. The idea of one romp in the hay bringing more happiness than the birth and life of your baby is stupid. Any father could contest to that. Usually such a large flaw with one of the main concepts of a show would turn me off, but everything else is interesting, action packed and still a little funny, so it helps ease the pain.
I've been content to ignore the entire time-travelling thread. The episode was so good that I can do that and still enjoy it. I loathe time travel with all my heart and wish producers would just drop it already.
IMHO this is a MAJOR flaw of this season. Angel is happier and more content than when he was with Buffy. The idea of one romp in the hay bringing more happiness than the birth and life of your baby is stupid. Any father could contest to that. Usually such a large flaw with one of the main concepts of a show would turn me off, but everything else is interesting, action packed and still a little funny, so it helps ease the pain.
Well, maybe Angel ISN'T truly happy even with Connor in his life. I mean, I know from first-hand experience that having a child is a wonderful thing--certainly the best thing that's ever happened to me--but there are worries and stresses that go along with it that that can make the experience worrisome as well. Besides these normal parental concerns, remember that a powerful organization is trying to kill his son. I don't know about you, but if my child was being hunted I would hardly be a happy person.
Also remember that he has other things on his mind as well. The loss of Darla is still a fresh wound, and Angel still has ambiguous feelings concerning Cordelia, even though he's put on a happy face about the whole thing.
This is enough to make anyone a bit unhappy.
__________________ Wolfspider
Founder of BADD - Bothered About Disposable Dragons
"Provide evidence of this claim, or retract it because it's a dishonest statement." -- Mourn, laying down the law
"The sins of the previous edition don't excuse the sins of the next." -- Kamikaze Midget, giving words to my thoughts
Last edited by Wolfspider; 10th March 2002 at 04:26 PM..
I think the demon is just a demon... not connor...
the reason angel does not know why the demon is after him is...
it hasn't happened yet.
At some point in the future, angel will encounter the demon and go after him, wrecking something of import to the demon... like maybe a son.
the demon wont know why this crazed vampire is after him but that will escape angel's notice.
Now the demon will set himself after angel going back in time to find angel's enemies (holtz) and eventually to cost angel his son as seen on TV.
The triggering event is obviously in the demon's past but it could still be in angel's future.
isn't time travel fun.
__________________ Balance (and imbalance) comes from the intersection of character abilities and the challenges they face. Since the GM knows/approves the former and determines the latter, balance (and imbalance) comes completely from the GM.
Or maybe it did happened but Angel -- or Angelus, if his evil persona have something to share -- don't know about it or don't put too much thought to each and every demonic adversaries he encountered, regardless if the adversary is considered a main villain at the time, or a simple criminal without power.
I am beginning to hate the Groo. He should get his own spin-off series.
__________________ Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...
My philosophy is "you don't need me to tell you how to play -- I'll just provide some rules and ideas to use and get out of your way." --Monte Cook
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