(Proposal) Increase Points to 32

[Creamsteak]

This is a short proposal to increase the points used in character creation from 30 to 32. This would be a retroactive change affecting all characters, and if implemented would allow a slight degree of retooling to stats.

I base this on the premise that, while 28 points is the mathematical average points value for 4d6-L, 32 is closer to the average points value of 4d6-L using the restrictions set by the Player's Handbook of at least one ability with a minimum of 14 and a total modifier for all abilities of +1 or better. 30 is also fairly close, but I just think 32 is a better choice.

I'm adding this to the archivomatic because I'd like to discuss this eventually.

[Uriel]

I mentioned this a few GD threads back, though I would really prefer an odd number, so as to have a stat that will actually get better through level advancement.
33 perhaps?

With the slow rate of character advancement in PbPs, actually gaining a stat bonus would be a particularly rewarding thing, IMHO.

-Uriel

[Pbartender]

Originally Posted by Creamsteak

I base this on the premise that, while 28 points is the mathematical average points value for 4d6-L...

Actually, 4d6-Lowest (with no other qualifications) averages out to be just over 12 for each ability... that's about a 24 point buy, not 28. That's why the standard array is a 25 point buy.

No that really affects the proposal.

[Creamsteak]

Originally Posted by Pbartender

Actually, 4d6-Lowest (with no other qualifications) averages out to be just over 12 for each ability... that's about a 24 point buy, not 28. That's why the standard array is a 25 point buy.

No that really affects the proposal.

But the average for a single stat is not the average for all possible ability score arrays, because point buy follows a non-linear method.

I used a computer program to test the actual value, and it comes out to being 28.5555555553 if I recall correctly. Basically, the average for 4d6-L is 28 or 29, but with qualifiers it gets boosted up a bit.

Edit: Here's my data:

30.4633219726944 is the average points value of the 87.32667196261% of the dice that contain at least one 14 or greater and the total ability modifier is greater than 0.

28.5277777778402 is the average points value of the 99.99999998912% of the dice.


The reason why my program has that error (99.99999998912% of 100%) is because it has accumulated that much rounding of numbers in error. Everything past the 10th decimal place is rounded off, and it quickly accumulates when you do 15^6 comparisons. Also, to clarify, The number 87.32667196261% is not a 13% error. It's still the same % error as the other number, but only about 87% of possible ability score rolls come out to being valid using the PHB method.


This number is what 1 roll out of the 6^24 total rolls comprises. So being off by that % above is actually omitting a significant number of low-chance rolls such as 3 3 3 3 3 3 because that occurs less than 0.0000000001% of the time.

0.000000000000000021104253300858436641297643797198

[Pbartender]

Originally Posted by Creamsteak

But the average for a single stat is not the average for all possible ability score arrays, because point buy follows a non-linear method.

I used a thorough computer programto test it, and it comes out to being 28.5555555553 if I recall correctly. Basically, the average for 4d6-L is 28 or 29, but with qualifiers it gets boosted up a bit.

Yeah, I see what you mean... Like any statistic, it depends a lot on how you crunch the numbers.

Anyway... It's had to argue against getting a stat boost. As far as I'm concerned, I'd be happy either way, but a few more points for abilities would be gravy.

[Creamsteak]

Updated my reply with gobs of information. If anyone wants to try the program, I was able to streamline it into a visual basic app that only takes about 2 minutes to compute (rather than trying to run 6^24 different comparisons, taking days on a very fast computer).

The actual average for 4d6-L using the restrictions that 1 number must be > 13 and the total ability modifier must be > 0 comes to be 30.4633219726944 . So very close to 30 and also very close to 31 (which is Odd, and supports Uriel's thoughts).

[Manzanita]

I'm hip for this. I would definitely favor increasing it to an odd number. I tend to like epic heros, so 35 is one I like. 31 would be a good option as well, as it would cause a minimium of change in PCs.

I like this idea for another, largely irrelevent, reason. Many of the PCs in the approved character thread have never been used, or have been abandoned. Noticing which PCs are updated with their additional point(s) would allow us to determine who is still with us.

[orsal]

Originally Posted by Creamsteak

This is a short proposal to increase the points used in character creation from 30 to 32. This would be a retroactive change affecting all characters, and if implemented would allow a slight degree of retooling to stats.

I base this on the premise that, while 28 points is the mathematical average points value for 4d6-L, 32 is closer to the average points value of 4d6-L using the restrictions set by the Player's Handbook of at least one ability with a minimum of 14 and a total modifier for all abilities of +1 or better. 30 is also fairly close, but I just think 32 is a better choice.

I'm adding this to the archivomatic because I'd like to discuss this eventually.

I prefer not to change. I don't think the difference between 30-point and 32-point is enough to get excited about. While I don't know which I'd support if we were making the decision at the beginning, I don't think any preference one way or the other is strong enough to support suddenly changing it.

"Shazam! Instantly everybody in the Red Dragon Inn just got better at something or other."

[Knight Otu]

Interesting proposal...

Looking at my characters, Semabin would benefit greatly from an increase in point buy. He could either increase both Str and Int to 14, or he could increase Cha to 14, both of which would fit him.

Ashnar (unposted) would gain no real benefit, either increasing Con, Wis or Cha to 15. His Int could only go up if I reduced some other stat, which I wouldn't want.

Increasing the point buy, however, could lead to a bit of a mess. For now, I think I would vote no.

[Kahuna Burger]

I'd be in favor of this. Considering the diluted effect of stats with a randomized roll and skill points thrown in, there's no need for a presumed "Shazam" effect of two points in a point buy (equalling at the very most a +1 to an ability bonus of a low stat). I doubt anyone would use them to increase their dump stat, just further the mecahnical definition of their characters as they are already portraying them. Count me as a definite yes when and if it comes to an official vote.

Kahuna Burger

[Otakkun]

IMO I think the setting would be made much more interesting if instead of better stats, everyone got +1 skill poiints per level. But then, that's just me, I'm a skills maniac.

[EvilGM]

I'm against the increase from 30 to 32 pt buy as there are many established characters all ready.

But then again, I don't think it really matters to me either way.

[GnomeWorks]

Hmm... three of my stats need boosting...

I'm for this.

[The Goblin King]

I don't see a problem changing it to 32.

[Knight Otu]

I suspect characters would have to be re-approved, just like when they level up.

[Pbartender]

It might not be a bad idea to have everyone re-post their characters in a new character-sheet thread anyway. It'd be a quick and easy way to weed out the characters that are no longer being used... Plus, it'd be a way to get everyone using the 'standard' format.

[DM-Rocco]

I am for the increase to 32. I agree with the basic premise that Creamsteak has put forth, also, it allows a character to have 2 18s if they want, at the sacrifice of 8 in every other ability of course, but it is there.


2 points doesn't seem like a lot, but, having made many a character on Never winter nights, which uses a buy system of 30, I can see where it opens many new doors.

[Uriel]

I still prefer an odd number, say 33?

I think that a new thread is an excellent idea,Pbartender.
Nobody gets the increase unless they post in the proper format (which was decided upon many months ago).Perhaps folks will post them preperly with an incentive.
Seriously, though, let's have a Poll. Leave it up a week so that everyone has a chance to vote on a simple yes/no. Go from there.
What do you say CS?

[WizWrm]

Er, wait, so if this passed, what happens to exisitng characters? Either A) players simply add the extra point to a stat low enough to be affected, or B) players can reshuffle their scores to account for the extra point. While (A) is definitely easier to deal with, I think a lot of players' decisions about where they assigned their points would be noticeably different if they knew that they could have an odd score and see it improve at 4th level.

[Creamsteak]

Originally Posted by Uriel

What do you say CS?

All in support of a new thread. That is something I think we should just do for the sake of doing it. As for the poll... if you start one, I would vote.