(Discussion) City of Orussus Description

[El Jefe]

I started this thread as a place where we could kick around ideas for fleshing out the city of Orussus without cluttering up the main discussion thread. The idea here is to accumulate enough material to form a proposal for a good city description.

[orsal]

Originally Posted by El Jefe

I started this thread as a place where we could kick around ideas for fleshing out the city of Orussus without cluttering up the main discussion thread. The idea here is to accumulate enough material to form a proposal for a good city description.

Here's a suggestion: the supreme governing body is a council composed of representatives of the city's important organizations, such as the university, various guilds, and possibly large trading companies. The council serves as legislative body as well as appointing executive and judicial authorities.

Several reasons I like this kind of arrangement. It leaves open the possibility for higher-level PCs, through associated organizations, to get involved in local politics (potential plot hooks later on), while keeping political complications distant when there isn't a planned hook. A syndicalist arrangement de-emphasizes family status, so PCs with no history in Orussus can establish themselves as important players -- keeping options open. Entrenched republican traditions could fit in well with Creamsteak's idea of a legalistic system -- no special privileges, at least not legally recognized, inherent in noble birth.

[El Jefe]

I think we can divine a few things about the inhabitants of Orussus from this fragment of the Living ENWorld Encyclopedia.

Note that the most significant building in town is the High Court of Orussus. In pre-human times, this was a temple. Now, if you look at real human history, in most ancient or midieval cities, the largest building in town was either a temple or church of some sort, a palace, a forum (marketplace), a stadium, baths or (near the end of the midieval period) a town hall. The good people of Orussus could have chosen to put the old temple to any of these uses, but they did not. Evidently the rule of law and the institution of the courts is very important to them.

I don't think this is at all at odds with the idea that Orussus is a crossroads town and port, drawing all sorts of strange and chaotic types from hither and yon. While travelers, merchants, and thieves come and go, the permanent residents have to find a way to live with all the hustle and bustle, and still maintain some sort of peace. Given that, I don't find it odd at all that the city proper has a decidedly lawful bent.

In this case, lawfullness doesn't necessarily mean choking bureaucracy. Indeed, that would be the downfall of a busy port and trade center...excessive taxes and regulation would simply drive business to some location near town, but not in it. Rather, I would think Orussus's lawful tendancies to manifest themselves as a strong belief in using the city's standing institutions to solve problems as opposed to an "every man for himself" philosophy. A common creed might be that come what may, so long as the decisions of the High Court are just and all are treated fairly, we'll all find a way to get along.

The consequences of this are that the standing institutions are well provided for, competent, and efficient. I think we've all seen this reflected by the town guard: In Rivenblight's Castaway, they have little interest in affairs outside the city (so long as city affairs are properly tended to), and in the recent duel outside the Red Dragon, the response of the guard was prompt (30 seconds response time) and efficient (all suspects in custody and facing justice after a single round). Further, the justice that the duelists faced was well-honed...they were free to go as soon as they peaceably resolved their dispute, and not one moment before. Although interaction with the city institutions won't always be this slick, we can expect things to generally work well because the citizens of Orussus care for things to work well.

Now, government by council (probably meeting in an impressive chamber in the High Court) is very appropriate to this sort of city. There are probably longstanding regulations governing how many representatives each guild, group, or organization seats. Also, Orussus is a free city, which means that it is not beholden to any lord, king or nation, and both considers itself and is considered by others as capable of managing its own affairs. Finally, note that there is no king, emir, or overlord ruling the city...if so, surely his palace would be more noteworthy than the High Court. Perhaps there is a special mansion for the Mayor to live in so long as he holds the post, but this would not be overly ostentatious (perhaps no more than 2 or 3 times the size of a typical wealthy merchant's home) and would not "belong" to him once out of office. I'd also expect the office of mayor to rotate between the various groups, perhaps regulated by statute...

[Creamsteak]

I really love the way you put that... and I totally think things can swing in that direction. Orussus started as a nickel and dime idea with the start of LEW "well we need a tavern to congregate in... what about the red dragon inn? sounds just generic enough to be awesome for this project..." and has slowly grown into what I think makes for a very interesting city to play in. I like the way you sort of capture the city as reasonable and caring, but also responsible and willing to do what's necessary.

[El Jefe]

I'd like to expound a little bit on the size of the city. Again, from the encyclopedia:

Thanks to the "large sewer system", there are "hundreds of ways in and out of the city that one can use without being seen". That implies a fair-sized city. The map we saw in the other thread, by my count, is suitable for a city of about 2-3000. I think Orussus is bigger than that.

Looking for real world examples, only fairly large cities had sewers. Even London didn't have a network of sewers that we would recognize until the Renaissance was pretty much over. Paris is a poor example, mainly because it's underground was dug up and rebuilt several times over as the city grew. Rome numbered over a million inhabitants at it's height. It's true that the Cloaca Maxima was built when the city was much smaller, but even that wasn't needed until the city had completely covered the Palatine hill and was rapidly filling in the swamp we now now as the site of the Roman Forum. That's right, the Cloaca Maxima was conceived less as a sanitary sewer and more as a public-works style "drain the swamp" project.

But if we go back, back to the very earliest sewers, they belong to the now-abandoned city of Knossos on Crete. It's hard to tell just how big the city was when the very first sewers were laid, but when it was abandoned about 1500 BC after a series of earthquakes and invasions, it had a perimeter of about 3.5 miles (the same as a circle 1.1 miles in diameter). That implies a population of between 50,000 and 100,000.

Now from the encyclopedia, the sewers "could provide service for a city twice the size of Orussus". I'd say that implies that the pre-human city of minotaurs that forms the ruins beneath Orussus would be about the size of ancient Knossos, especially if there are "hundreds" of secret entrances. "Twice the size of Orussus" could mean twice the population, twice the area, or twice the diameter (2x as big a "spot" on the map). Twice the population would imply that Orussus occupies about half the area of the old city, which would be a circle about 3/4 of a mile in diameter. Twice the diameter would mean Orussus has 1/4 the population of the old city, and that would be a circle about 2900 feet in diameter.

So, depending on population density, my estimate of the population of Orussus would range from 12,500 (for a city half the diameter of one that once held 50,000) to 50,000 (for one that had half the population of one that crammed 100,000 in a 1.1 mile circle).

Even 12,500 would be an ambitious mapping project if we took it down to the level of every shop, house, warehouse and shed. But maybe a simplified streetmap wouldn't be too bad, showing the principal places of interest.

[Pbartender]

Ah, but... I'd gottenthe impression that the "sewers", aren't necessarily sewers, are obviously far too large for a cityof its size, and at least have portions that definitely predate the current city.

In which case... 2-3000 wouldn't be unreasonable, and it gives me a great for that particular town map, and a couple possible adventure hooks.

Don't forget that the vast majority of the town's population would be transient adventurers. Think of it as a sort of 'boom' town or 'tourist' town. All of its facilities and resources are going to be five to ten times what the permanent population requires.

[orsal]

Originally Posted by Pbartender

Ah, but... I'd gottenthe impression that the "sewers", aren't necessarily sewers, are obviously far too large for a cityof its size, and at least have portions that definitely predate the current city.

In which case... 2-3000 wouldn't be unreasonable, and it gives me a great for that particular town map, and a couple possible adventure hooks.

Don't forget that the vast majority of the town's population would be transient adventurers. Think of it as a sort of 'boom' town or 'tourist' town. All of its facilities and resources are going to be five to ten times what the permanent population requires.

The "vast majority"? When was that decided? Don't forget it's a trade port, and that's going to account for a lot of business and support a significant population. Also a transient community, and a lot of services supporting them, but the people providing the services live in the town too. That'll make it a good-sized town.

The largest cities, however, would be capitals or administrative centers of larger countries or regions, and it doesn't sound like Orussus is that. So I'd say probably somewhere between 10,000 and 25,000.

I'd prefer toward the upper end of that range. The larger the city, the more potential for a wide range or organizations and activities that can provide plot hooks.

[CCamfield]

Some thoughts

- Personally, I like the idea of a ruling council better than mayor and council. If there's a mayor, then he's probably got final say - more power, anyhow. If it's just the council, then more things will be decided by vote, and that will mean more interesting politics. That isn't to say that there wouldn't be a (perhaps rotating) President of the Council, who runs the meetings, but it would be more of an honorary position than a powerful one.

- The encyclopedia entry mentions that minotaurs once lived there. Could it be that at least part of the "sewers" are in fact the labyrinthine underground portion of their city? Minotaurs being minotaurs, they wouldn't have gotten lost down there, and with an underground tunnel system, they could have made their entire city virtually a fortress (for purposes of protection should they be attacked).

[orsal]

Originally Posted by CCamfield

- Personally, I like the idea of a ruling council better than mayor and council. If there's a mayor, then he's probably got final say - more power, anyhow. If it's just the council, then more things will be decided by vote, and that will mean more interesting politics. That isn't to say that there wouldn't be a (perhaps rotating) President of the Council, who runs the meetings, but it would be more of an honorary position than a powerful one.

I would think any government needs some sort of executive position with the authority to make snap decisions in a crisis without having to convene a council. It could be a relatively weak executive, and I don't care whether you call it a mayoralty, but there ought to be someone.

[El Jefe]

It seems like we have one vote for 2-3000, another for about 12,500, and a third for 25,000. For reasons of consistency, I think it would be best if we (meaning the entire LEW community, not just the 3 of us) could reach a consensus. It would bother me to have Orussus portrayed as a very small town in one adventure, one where "everybody knows everybody in town", and then to have it portrayed as very large in another, one where two citizens could live out their entire lives in the city without even so much as hearing of the other.

Is this a suitable subject for a poll?

[Creamsteak]

Um... the population is not something that's up for debate really. I established that Orussus is a Large City on the low end of a Large cities population. Not all of that is current residents, about 40-60% of the people in town at a given time should comprise temporary townspeople (including merchants that live in the city for less than 6 months a year).

[El Jefe]

Creamsteak, forgive me, I'm a little new to 3.0 and 3.5 and I missed the reference to the city size. But now I'm still confused.

Table 5-2 in the DMG sets a 3,000 GP limit on items that are readily available in a Large Town, which has a population of 2,000-5,000. The same table sets a limit of 40,000 GP on a Large City, which has a population of 12,000-25,000. So, should that mean that Large City was a typo and that you really meant Large Town? If so, that fits the stated GP limit of 3,000, and also fits the map in the other thread.

[Creamsteak]

The stated GP limit in Orussus was NOT 3,000. I'm not sure where you got that. It was either 25k or 50k, I forget which at the moment. It is a large city as I said, and with high commerce traffic I think that it warrants the 50k.

[Knight Otu]

In a recent General Discussion thread, I dug out this:

The GP limit in Orussus is 20,000 gold pieces. This is pretty high, and mostly because of the Red Dragon Inn, which fuels the magic item community around there. Any items up to 20,000 gold pieces in value can be purchased with a smaller amount of time invested.

20,000 would be high for a small city (normally 15,000), but low for a large city (normally 40,000).

[Creamsteak]

Thanks. So high-end small city or low-end large city.

[The Goblin King]

<sheepish grin> The real reason for the sewers paragraph was so that there would be a close 'dungeon' available where a party could readily delve then return to the city. Due to magic I have always thought that D&D cities could afford things that mideval cities didn't have. Working indoor plumbing and the sewers that go along with it would be one of them. However, that is just IMHO. The line about the sewer system being oversized was to mean that someone could enter the underground outside the city and walk under the walls then come up in the city. This is so that bad guys can get into the city or escape without being seen by the authorities. I guess it doesn't make much sense. Why doesn't the town guard collapse those tunnels? :\

The 'sewers' in Crocodile Rock are actually modeled after the storm drains I used to play in when I was growing up. I had always imagined that there were secret doors somewhere down there that lead to treasure, adventure, and Ninja Turtles. I never did find them.

I had pictured that Orussus was a city that had been inhabited for a very very long time. It may have even been the first city ever but was eclipsed by other cities. Orussus has been attacked and destroyed several times in its history. It was always rebuilt but not always in the same place. Modern Orussus lies a few miles from the ruined sites where the city stood in ages past.

For inspiration I was thinking of Jericho. The city has has been a human settlement since around 8000 BC. The walls of Jericho have come down many times throughout history (see Joshua 6 ). The biggest difference is that Jericho is a desert oasis where Orussus is a port town. Orussus is going to need a large navy to deal with pirates. Or perhaps the government hires privateers to do it?

[El Jefe]

Well, let's forget 3,000 GP. I don't know where I saw that, and I may have gotten it confused with the paragraph about availability on page 112 of the PHB.

If the 20,000 GP limit is "pretty high...because of the Red Dragon Inn, which fuels the magic item community", that argues for a small city with some inflation due to an influx of adventurers...or, a population of 5,000 to 12,000.

But a "Large City on the low end of a Large cities population" would be at least 12,001. I guess if we say that "40-60%" of that are transients, that gives us about 5,000 permanent adult citizens with a total population of 12,000, so I think that's about where we are at.

As for the prevalence of sewers, I guess the DMG on page 101 answers that.

[Creamsteak]

By the way, why is the population so important to you?

[El Jefe]

Well, it's a very important part of the feel of a place. Life in say, Kennebunkport is very different from life in New York City. The pace is different, the goods and services available are different, the size of the city government is different, and all of these things affect gameplay in a fantasy city. For example, I can easily accept that the Red Dragon would be the only inn in even a large city that adventurers would note and seek out, but just how much does it dominate city life for the locals? Can you step outside and either be outside the city gates or at the opposite side of the city in 5 minutes? Or does it take an hour of walking just to get to the nearest gate?

Getting that feel right is an important part of creating a persistant, believable world. In a small city, there will be a handful of prominent local NPC's that pop up over and over again. EVERYONE will go to "Bob the Armorer's Shop" and "Jim's House of Magic Supply" because Bob and Jim are the only two guys in town who sell that sort of thing...it makes sense to create Bob and Jim as NPC's, and to create a little background and personality for them.

But in a very large city, there'll be a whole street full of armorers, and another street full of weaponsmiths, and at least 3 or 4 places to get magic supplies. Instead of, "You go to Jim's, and Jim recognizes you from the last time", it's "You go to Magic Alley, and after a half hour of shopping, you find that one of the merchants will sell you a Quasit's tail for 75 GP." The "magic merchant" can be nameless and faceless, because there's no compelling reason for a particular character to ever see him again, as the PC will just as likely do business with a different merchant the next time. It's that "look and feel" thing again.

Also, bounding the city size bounds the size of the city map, and quite possibly bounds the amount of detail that you want to put in the map. It makes sense to mark every tree, hitching post and outhouse in a small hamlet. In a really huge city, everything gets abstracted to laying out large districts, noting the most important streets, and highlighting a few points of interest...there's neither need nor time to lay out thousands of houses, shops, taverns, temples, etc.

[Creamsteak]

Orussus is a large trade city with a port. Without giving you some arbitrary population, I can tell you that there ARE going to be guilds of armorsmiths, wheelrights, carpenters, bakers, and other jobs. The local inns are going to be well established and will try and hedge out any competition when it pops up. Everyone should know the "big" names of merchant companies and city officials, but nobody has met every person in the city. Not even Joe the bartender and innkeeper.

But saying, "The "magic merchant" can be nameless and faceless, because there's no compelling reason for a particular character to ever see him again, as the PC will just as likely do business with a different merchant the next time. It's that "look and feel" thing again." is like saying that the kobold that runs away is as good as a dead kobold. Your oversimplifying things, because this sort of interaction depends upon the Players and not the population of the city. It's up to the players to decide whether Jacob, son of Ramthils, blacksmith of all Homlett is important. Not the fact that there are 100 odd smiths in Divers.

The same logic applies to detailing a large city street by street. It's up to the designers how much effort to put in. Orussus, being our sort of central pivot, would be fine to detail out completely in a Freeport sense where there are troves and troves of information on a large city.

So, my opinion is that the actual number for population is fairly trivial. I'd "guess" that the population of the city fluctuates from 8,000 to 14,000 depending on time of year and current market. Throw in a few big changes (the city of Allimon is burned to the grond and survivors scramble to their families in Orussus for safety) and things could go up or down in big numbers. Dragon burns down half the city? Same thing, it's going to change things.