Charisma....what would you add to it? - D&D 3rd Edition News Board D&D 3rd Edition News Board House Rules Charisma....what would you add to it? profile | register | preferences | faq | search next newest topic | next oldest topic Author Topic: Charisma....what would you add to it? Malhavik Member posted 06-26-2001 11:20 AM I'm getting a new campaign off of the ground and I am deciding on my final house rules. I would really like to do something about the charisma stat. In my opinion, it is the only stat that does not have a strong game mechanic that is important to ALL classes. I will be the first one to agree that it is vital to the sorceror, bard, paladin and (to a lesser degree) cleric. However, it means very little to the other classes. Yes there are some skills that put it to use but most of those skills are only available to the bard (who already needs it) and the rogue. All the other stats have an across the board bonus to all classes.. Str - to hit and dmg (not too important to the arcane casters but does come up) weight limit Dex - AC and to hit with ranged attacks, reflex save Con - Hits, fort save Int - skill points Wis - Will save (arguably the second least useful stat to non Wis dependent classes) The only bonus that charisma grants, beyond the skills its based on (all the other stats have important skills connected to them too), is NPC reaction. I can play that up some, but generally that just puts the character with the highest charisma (usually one of the charisma classes anyway) up front and rarely actually penalizes/rewards the lower charisma characters. Im looking for a house rule...has anyone heard of any good ones. I'm looking for one that doesn't reduce the effectiveness of the wisdom stat as I consider it to be the stat with the second least cross class appeal. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks IP: Logged oswystun Member posted 06-26-2001 11:25 AM What your forgetting is that charisma is the main stat for sorcerors and bards, for clerics it determines your undead turning ability and it is the core skill for most rogues/fighters (bluff - to be able to feint opponents in combat). We are finding that charisma is just as important in many areas. (diplomacy => to buy important items at maybe less than full retail gather information => where was that dungeon?, etc... It is also the modifier to leadership skill to get cohorts.... ------------------ "Illigitimai noncarborundum" IP: Logged Xylix Member posted 06-26-2001 11:41 AM Well part of the thing is Charisma doesn't come into play if you always keep your character together. The highest charisma character ends up doing all the talking. However if you occasionaly encourage them to do more than just 'adventure' together charisma gains its weight quite quickly. Personaly I don't run dungeons at all, you may receive missions from higher authorities, but their are plenty of otherthings to do, and even then I often make sure players have slightly seperate goals. For instance my organization the Church of Rebirth has quite different orders for the Paladin and for the Theif........ for a while they will hang together, but once there they split up and do their things. IP: Logged Malhavik Member posted 06-26-2001 11:47 AM Actually if you read my post you will see that "I will be the first one to agree that it is vital to the sorceror, bard, paladin, and (to a lesser degree) cleric". And, again, I know that there are charisma skills that are useful. This is true of all of the other stats too though Str - climb, jump, swim Dex - tumble, escape artist, ride Con - concentration (ok con is a little weak in the skill department) Int - all knowledge skills, spellcraft, search Wis - spot, listen What I am looking for, is something additional that helps people that put a good stat in charisma and penalizes people that put a bad stat in it. Thanks for responding oswystun. IP: Logged Basilisk Member posted 06-26-2001 11:56 AM One DM I played with also used charisma as a luck stat. If a question came up which really had no bearing on any skill a character might have (for example, "is there an unlocked car parked on this street for me to steal and make my getaway" or "Now that I've stolen the car, how distinctive is it?") he'd have us roll a charisma check. Make the check dramatically and you end up with a drab, ordinary looking car, blow it and it's probably a souped up hot rod with red flames painted on the sides and an engine you can hear three miles away, if you rolled a one, it would also be owned by a local mafia boss who would come after you later. IP: Logged KDLadage Moderator posted 06-26-2001 12:08 PM One of my friends is starting up a campaign soon. He has suggested letting Charisma (the force of personality) represent more than just personality, but also a bit of luck, force of sheer will and so forth. Thus, he has decided to use it as a universal saving throw bonus to all classes. This means that many characters will have a slightly elevated Saving Throw, but not so much as to be a big problem. ------------------ K. David Ladage Check out the EN World Sites -- Home of UMBRAGIA: Realms of Shadow! IP: Logged Malhavik Member posted 06-26-2001 12:29 PM I was thinking maybe something along the lines of a luck thing too actually. I think that the saving throw bonus could get out of hand...especially in light of the paladin charisma save bonus. But something along the lines conceptually of a luck bonus of some kind could be cool....hmmmm. Xylix, Im with you on the not dungeon crawl thing. I try to include a balance of traditional crawl vs urban/political drama and the charisma guy definitely has a bonus in those situations, but so does the int guy and the wisdom guy. But I am really looking for some kind of mechanic. Something small but measurable. The luck thing has me thinking though...thanks guys. If anyone else has any suggestions I would greatly appreciate them. IP: Logged JackHaggerty Member posted 06-26-2001 06:26 PM Interestingly enough, if you look at the history of the word charisma, the luck spiel works quite well... From www.webster.com : Etymology: Greek charisma favor, gift, from charizesthai to favor, from charis grace; akin to Greek chairein to rejoice In other words... A charismatic character could be said to be "favored by the gods", or have the "grace of the gods". Perhaps they have good karma, or good vibes, or the Force is with them. Whatever you want to call it, they are in essence, lucky. A character's Charisma score determines how circumstances conspire for or against them. I like the idea. ------------------ Jack "Blackjack" Haggerty, Salvageer Extraordinaire. "TANSTAAFL!" IP: Logged first oth Member posted 06-26-2001 07:09 PM as it was already mentioned, most of the other stats aren't universally useful. str is just important for fighting classes. and the penalty of not being able to carry as much isn't that hard. con is useful for everyone, but doesn't carry special advantages for any class. dex is useful for most non-armor-wearing classes and for some skills. wis is useful for some casters and for perception skills (one of the lifesavers ) int is useful for everyone cha is useful for any character interaction. the usefulnes depends on your type of game. where there is a lot of social interaction, cha could be the most useful stat. on the other hand, if u plan to play in dark dungeons it may become the least important. IP: Logged Destil Member posted 06-26-2001 07:16 PM I've been considering allowing someone to use the better of their Cha/Wis scores for will saves myself, along the lines of the self-awareness angel. ------------------ Destil Shadesk, mage of torpid arm and turbid soul Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him. [This message has been edited by Destil (edited 06-26-2001).] IP: Logged Malhavik Member posted 06-27-2001 09:44 AM First Oth "as it was already mentioned, most of the other stats aren't universally useful." Actually they are... "str is just important for fighting classes. and the penalty of not being able to carry as much isn't that hard." The "fighting classes" would be pretty much every class but the wiz/sorc? All of the others are expected to enter melee, and str is hardly a good idea to ignore if you are going to do that. Also, it helps the wiz/sorc with touch spells. "con is useful for everyone, but doesn't carry special advantages for any class." i agree here "dex is useful for most non-armor-wearing classes and for some skills." Reflex save is nice for everyone, initiative never hurts, and even a heavily armored character can use a bonus to ranged attacks. "wis is useful for some casters and for perception skills (one of the lifesavers)" Lets not forget that will save. "int is useful for everyone" Again, I agree. "cha is useful for any character interaction." True, but In MANY situations you can have another character pinch-hit for you in these situations. Its pretty hard to have another character make a save for you, or swing your weapon for you or roll initiative for you. Very often though its easy to have someone else do the talking for you. "the usefulnes depends on your type of game. where there is a lot of social interaction, cha could be the most useful stat. on the other hand, if u plan to play in dark dungeons it may become the least important." However, the other stats usefulness is not anywhere near as dependent on the type of game you will be playing. It's D & D after all, even in an intensely political campaign there will be SOME fighting. Destil Yeah, I had considered that. Id really rather not lessen the impact of wisdom though as it is one of the less generall useful stats already. Thanks for the input everyone. IP: Logged oswystun Member posted 06-27-2001 04:09 PM Ok, I like this topic...and I have a character who in fact is a cleric who has the luck domain...so..... You could use charisma the way warhammer fbrpg did fate, or warhammer quest did hero points (or something like that). Your charisma bonus can be used (per day) to reroll rolls. You must keep the second roll (unless you want them to continue rolling). So a charisma 18 would allow for 4 rerolls/day/week/whatever....Week is probably better but it should be up to you. IP: Logged RedShirtNo5 Member posted 06-27-2001 09:32 PM My house rule, which I told the players about before character creation, is that "interesting" magic items will often require a charisma check (fairly easy, e.g., DC 2 or 3) to activate or attune. Basic stuff like armor and weapons with enhancement bonuses, potions, and scrolls always work. But a ring of invisibility might be DC 3 to activate. I also read a thread here where a monster might attack either of 2 PCs, and the DM had the players make opposed charisma checks, with the monster attacking the loser. -RedShirt IP: Logged J Member posted 06-28-2001 01:21 AM Interesting topic and a good suggestion from oswystun: quote: Originally posted by oswystun: Ok, I like this topic...and I have a character who in fact is a cleric who has the luck domain...so..... You could use charisma the way warhammer fbrpg did fate, or warhammer quest did hero points (or something like that). Your charisma bonus can be used (per day) to reroll rolls. You must keep the second roll (unless you want them to continue rolling). So a charisma 18 would allow for 4 rerolls/day/week/whatever....Week is probably better but it should be up to you. One re-roll per point of bonus per week is very powerful, several can be used on one day if needed. The Luck *Domain Power* is only one re-roll per day. I really like the mechanic, though. How about this, it doesn't seem as powerful: This is very simple: A. Once per week per point of charisma bonus, you may add one point to the result of a check involving some amount of luck. I like this a bit better, but it a little more complicated: B. Once per day per point of charisma bonus, you may attempt to add one point to the result of a check involving some amount of luck. To do so you must succeed at a (unmodified) charisma check against DC 20. This is very similar to Luck in Warhammer FR, though not quite as powerful and using charisma: C. If you have a charisma bonus, you may attempt to take advantage of it every day. The first time it is used in a day, the DM secretly rolls a single die (player decides which die?). If the roll is equal to or lower than your charisma bonus, you get to take advantage of your luck that many times that day. If the roll is higher, you may not benefit from your luck at all that day. Only the DM knows what is rolled and is therefore the only one who knows when your luck is used up for the day. The effect of taking advantage of luck is that you may add one point to the result of a check involving some amount of luck. [Alternative: The roll is made once per week and the effect is a re-roll.] (The result of this mechanic is that the player never knows if the character still has any luck left.) Alternatively, the effect of using luck could be that the DM tweaks events a bit to the character's advantage. Edit: I really think using Luck should be unreliable. Preferably in the sense that the player can never be sure to be able to use luck. Something obvious: Modifying rolls by Luck should never affect meta results such as rolls for hitpoints and things like that. That's what I mean by "... involving some amount of luck". [This message has been edited by J (edited 06-28-2001).] IP: Logged moonkids Member posted 06-28-2001 06:20 AM I think that the best way to make all characters' cha scores important is to make the cha's off ALL characters present in a social situation count toward the effect on NPC attitude. No matter who does all the talking, the atitude, manner and comments of other PCs will effect the reaction of the NPC, in my opinion: Low cha PCs will make inappropriate comments, give strange (perhaps threatening) looks or other mannerisms, of even let off (ahem) bodily noises that will put off whoever the main speaker is talking to. High cha PCs will be able to inject thoughtful insights into the conversation, use positive body language, or just stand there looking impressive and capable. Therefore i suggest one of the following-- either apply the cha modifiers of ALL present characters to NPC attitude rolls, or make every player (other than the main speaker) roll a seperate check, each succesful character adding +2 to the speaker's roll, and each unsuccessful subtracting -2. This second could also be used to affect the use of cha based skills. note that in the above, characters would be FORCED to add their modifiers or make checks (depending which you chose), and the only way a low cha PC could prevent themself from causing penalties would be to be physically absent (or hiding). saul IP: Logged Duron Member posted 07-26-2001 10:53 AM To help keep CHA from often being a dump stat, I use the following: Unconscious and dying (below 0 HPs): Roll your CHA% for all the rolls that presently roll 10%. I do this instead of using CON% because after the character starts to die, and the urge to leave the body is building, force of will/presence is what counts. Also, characters can go to -10 OR -CHA, whichever is better, before possibly dying. Once this level is reached, roll 1/2 caster level + CHA mod +1d20 vs. DC of whatever the current negative hit point total is. Success means you lose another hit point, but live another round. Rolling a 20, or 10 over what was needed to save, means you miraculously stabilize. Hero Points/Fate Points: At 1st level, characters get (d4 + CHA mod) Hero Points, which are really character preservation "wishes". Every level after that, characters get (d4 + CHA mod) Fate Points, which roughly translate to the luck, rerolls, etc. discussed by other posters. Raise Dead/Resurrection: Both the PC and the cleric essentially Commune with either the deity or one of the deity's powerful servants and use persuasion to convince that the character is worthy/has critical unfinished business/etc. to come back from the dead. Borderline persuasion comes down to a combined CHA check from the cleric and PC based upon a DC that is variable depending upon situation. Maximum Coming Back From The Dead: A character can only come back from the dead a number of times equal to 1 + CHA modifier. IP: Logged geniemalin Member posted 07-26-2001 11:10 AM My suggestion: Will save based on CH not WS Initiative based on WS (a function of awareness of your surroundings) not DX. Anyone using CH as a dump stat is going to get a poor Will save and social penalties. Have a non-combat social interaction adventure if you want to drive the point home. Anyone using WS as a dump stat is going to get surprised (Spot and Listen) and flatfooted. A lot. Give the monsters class levels in rogue if you want to drive the point home. 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