As a random thought, does the simplicity of minions rob the player's sense of accomplishment when he/she kills one?

I have to say, as a DM, I love them (minions) -- I don't have to track HP. I can just tally mark them off my scrap sheet for the battle as they get killed.

On the flip side, as a DM, I get a little annoyed when a PC's secondary damage (like from a cleave that does a couple points of damage to an adjacent enemy) is enough to kill one when the primary enemy target took 20+ damage.

As a player, sometimes (though not always) I can get in to it and do an internal "yay" every time I kill/incapacitate one. Other times it is a "yes, it was a minion, but let's get to the important enemies!"

And whether I am a player or DM, sometimes I look over at the faces of other players and when they kill a minion it's that "no big deal, just a minion" or in our after game discussions, the people that killed dozens of minions (while everyone else held back a brute) will say something like "yeah, I felt completely useless in that fight" (even though they killed the most, just not the one big bad guy).

As a DM I am not sure I want to give up the "tally" simplicity of minions for tracking more hp of several enemies. But I am not keen on the "any amount of splash damage is enough to kill it" aspect either.

I mentally toyed with a couple ideas:

• a minion has extra hp equal to it's level. This would mean that the DM has to track hp but it gets rid of the splash damage issue. Default rule of no damage on a miss still applies
• a 1 hp minion has a 1/4 chance to stay alive after taking damage. The DM still wouldn't need to track hp (just roll a d4 after every hit). This would also vary the staying power of the minion adding to a sense of accomplishment for the kill. Default rule of no damage on a miss still applies. Or maybe it's a 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 chance, whatever.. just was throwing out a number.
• the second time a minion takes damage, he dies (regardless of amount of damage taken); default rule about no damage on a miss applies. But this means the DM has to keep track of how many times he's been hit.
• any single attack that deals damage equal to one-half its level is enough to kill it. No tracking involved. But this could be trouble for the controllers in the group since they have the lowest damage output (comparatively).

Will I actually get around to implementing any of this as a house rule? Doubtful. But it did get me thinking about minions, simplicity vs sense of accomplishment.

So, back to the original premise of this blog. To anyone reading out there, how unsatisfying is a minion kill?

Edit: The more I think about it, I think I may have part of the explanation.

Given two scenarios:

Scenario A:
The entire party is facing hundreds of minions trying to breech the city walls. All the PCs are fighting minions, etc.

Scenario B:
The party is facing 8 minions, and 3 other types (elites, solos, brutes, lurkers, whatever). One person is clearing away all the minions and everyone else is concentrating fire on the 3 bigger types.

In scenario A, i can forsee everyone feeling equally good about their kills (presuming the dice were kind and they weren't always missing).

On the other hand, scenario B is sort of what I've been seeing in my groups so far. Sure the one person single-handedly took out 2/3 of the enemies but was less satisfied by it because they may have been comparing thier actions to those of the other PCs -- so that comparison may be part of it.

Anyway, just wanted to add that after though to this stream of words on the topic..

fba827

To date, as a player, I have gotten to play 5 different 4e characters - some for only a game. They all play fairly differently but I can tell my favorite types are still generally the same types that I liked before.

My first 4e character was a pregenerated Rogue at a D&D game day when 4e was released. So, I only played it for the one session-long dungeon crawl at level 1.
A lot of my impressions are tainted by the fact that 4e was a brand new toy so it had the "ooh, shiny" factor. But on the flip side, there was an ever so slight learning curve to get used to it.
I liked the implementation of the rogue, at least for the single game that I played him in. I could not, however, stomach playing him for an entire campaign; I'm not much for close combat weapon fighting.


My second 4e character was a bow ranger. This is the one character I got to play the longest (about 8 sessions). Based on my own personal preferences, I was a little bored with the variety in the attack powers: one or two arrow shots with the occasional effect. I like varied damage types and what not, so it's a personal thing. But beyond that, I was having a lot of fun with the character. I liked his personality, I liked his skill assortment, and I liked being a distance fighter.


My third 4e character was a shifter cleric. I themed him and his powers after a primitive shaman type (the shaman class not having been available at the time). I have always liked playing clerics in the past, and this was no different. But, while I would have preferred a cleric with more ranged abilities, I gave him a mix of range and melee cleric powers since it fit the character better. The character only saw 1.5 game sessions of play. So it didn't see much action. None the less, he was a fun character (with an enjoyable personality that I would have enjoyed exploring further).


My fourth 4e character was a fighter. He only saw a half-session of play so I didn't get much play out of him. I have to say out of every class type I played, this was the least preferred by me -- it was all melee combat and weapon damage, the two things I enjoy the least.


My fifth 4e character is a swordmage. He's seen 4 sessions so far (making him the second longest used so far). Despite it being melee combat, I am still enjoying it due to the variety in damage/attack types (some bursts and blasts and varied damage etc).



Although I continuously generate PCs on paper and I DM a bunch of NPCs when I am behind the screen, these are the 5 I've gotten to try out in play. There are others I am anxious to try but just haven't had the opportunity to do so.


How about the rest of you (not that anyone actually reads my blogs ) -- what class types have you gotten to play with and what have you personally liked about that classes play style?

fba827

About a year ago (when 4e first came out) I went to my first D&D Game Day and signed up for the RPGA as part of participating in the activity.

I never really did anything with this membership and figured it would just be another random thing I signed up for in order to do something for the day.

But, recently, on a sheer random whim, I logged in to my rpga account online and hunted around. I did a couple things (like figuring out how to log in when I didn't know what my initial password would be, etc) but then I found it difficult to do much of anything else - I found it to be completely disorganized and hard to navigate.

Now I completely understand that I was just looking in a rather superficial and casual way -- and perhaps if I was spending longer there, I would have figured out how to navigate and find the current information, but when all I saw was outdated stuff with only the occasional more recent page, I was too turned off to give it the time and stay longer.

By an large (at least is my understanding) the majority of RPGA stuff is volunteer run. I understand that and can respect that aspect of it. But, I really think it's time to give those pages a look over so that it isn't so daunting to casual onlookers trying to find current information on joining or benefits and such.

Does this blog entry have a real point? Not really. I am just disheartened by what I saw and thought I'd share. However, I am sure they are using their time to handle organizing actual play events (of which I hope to have more opportunities to participate in in the future).

fba827

So we had our first 4edition PC death tonight.
It wasn't my character, but it was a PC none the less.

Of course, his character actions did make him deserve it based on the organic evolution of the story (he set actions in motion that caused a backlash down the road).

But, it should be noted... Tambor (eladrin wizard) farewell -- although you had no talent for dealing with people, you still had a knack of intelligent uses of abilities in random situations.

Oddly enough, just two days ago I convinced myself that the chance of a 4e PC death would be difficult given the death and healing mechanics. I guess this just proved me wrong

Edit: Of course, the very next session after that first death, another PC died -- my OWN! For death saving throw I got a 3, 4, then 3 (that's with the bonus +1 for the human feat) -- talk about a series of sucky rolls and bad timing for the other PCs to be on the other side of the map.

Ah well, Arius "The Scout" Terak, I will miss you. I think I liked almost everything about his build (there wasn't anything that I felt was "wasted" or useless")

fba827

After dealing with a particular player, for my own catharsis, based on actual experiences with a humorous spin, it's time for an episode of Good Idea / Bad Idea :-D

Good Idea: Stating the reason you want to do things is to have a little in-character conflict
My PC will still not trust this other PC to hold the all-powerful artifact. Therefore, my PC will plan to challenge his PC for the right to hold the artifact as they take it to safety

Bad Idea: Stating the reason you want to do things is to annoy certain players
My PC will do (action) because I want to see the look on (player's name) when I piss him off, and then I'll keep doing it because it's what my PC would do... but it will just tickle me to see (player) be pissed all the time and not be able to do anything about it because it was the character's actions

Good idea: Having personal goals and ambitions for your character
I want to start a store

Bad Idea: directly stating that you want your personal goals and ambitions to be the focus of the entire game (that makes a better book rather than group game).
They can keep doing whatever, but for the whole campaign i want to stay in the city and build up my store...so who is a good tailor to talk to in town about drapes for the windows of the store?

Good Idea: wanting to be active during the game session
oh, what's this and what's going on? and i was a little unclear on this point ...

Bad Idea: constantly interrupting the DM or other players when they are in the middle of sentences
I know my PC is doing this for an hour, and I know you're in the middle of talking to someone else to explain important things, but what color eyes does the guy I'm flirting with at the bar have?

Good idea: coming up with creative ways to do things
i will mage hand the sunrod to the ceiling so everyone can see the whole room

Bad Idea: coming up with creative ways to do things, asking for exceptions so that it will work the way you want it to, and then asking if you can do certain exploits on the exception you just asked for
I will mage hand the sunrod to the ceiling, i know you said the ceiling is low but can there be a little nook for it to get higher? Yes? okay, I then start shooting at that nook since it must be a weak spot in the ceiling in order to make the room cave in

Good Idea: asking for details to make your game experience more fun
I like writing down NPC info so that I can keep track of who our contacts are ...

Bad Idea: not listening to the DM when he says that is too much unnecessary detail, and still asking the exact same question over and over
Okay, that many names isn't necessary to keep track of? fine... but can you then tell me the occupations of the 30 people at the bar at least... and since we're at it, names and descriptions?

Good Idea: having whatever creative background you want, whether it be happy or gloomy
My PC was in a city that was attacked by the tyrant's army. everyone except my PC was killed, instead she was kept in a side tent as a "prize" for one of the patrolmen. After being raped, she was able to barely escape ...

Bad Idea: choosing to go for a gloomy background and then giving 4 pages dedicated solely to fictional rape scenes including body part names, how much semen was excreted, and descriptions of positions the PC was held down in along with how much blood drained out by having a cherry popped.
I'm from a small town that was attacked by the army. (followed by 4 pages of erotic fiction with a rape fetish here) followed by one sentence "and then after 2 weeks of running she made it to the city. -- I don't care if that's what you're in to.. but, for this game, really, 99% of your 4 page background shouldn't be the details of your rape scene and how you clutched the bed with each thrust and only 1 % about being from a town and then escaping.

Good Idea: Being excited about the game even when not at the game
oh, it was cool when this happened...and Sigfried, what a pudgy halfling NPC! he had a lot of spunk for an old guy, jumping down in to the sewers after us like that despite his high position

Bad Idea: Being so excited that the DM's stomach turns at the thought of opening his email from you with 30 unnecessary questions

Worse Idea: Being so excited you acknowledge, and then ignore, it when the DM tells you he's kind of busy this week but will still answer your questions if you can focus them down a little and save the rest for the game day

Good Idea: Wanting your character to grow and get stuff
Oooooh, we gained experience points and found a lifedrinker +1!

Bad Idea: Telling the DM all the reasons you are owed experience and items during your first level.
So we just started.. but I'm a rogue and I want to get my +5 dagger of ultimate doom and destruction now. let's see, since she has been in city for a month, she probably has a sugardaddy by now. a sugardaddy would want to dress up his prize in nice clothes and jewelry. so i want to go sell the jewelry he gave me in order bribe some people to get the blueprints to the houses in the rich district. then i can start breaking in to them until i find the +5 dagger of ultimate doom and destruction that i want. oh, and all that flirting i did in the bar was some serious roleplaying so that's got to be worth at least 500 experience points.. i am adding that to my sheet. Let me know if it's more than that, 'cause I may level up again!

This concludes this episode of Good Idea / Bad Idea. Happy Gaming!

fba827

I know this really depends on the player, but, geez, how many times do I have to run in to a male player who insists that his female character is a slut that uses sex to get what she wants?



Really people, we're not ten years old. Let's grow up a little.

fba827

I am in that special kind of (hades' domain) that only some other DMs can fully understand.

There is a person in the group that is so exceptionally demanding on time and detail both in and out of the game.

He is a nice enough person, so I am trying my hardest to be patient and accommodate... but, all I can say is, I better be on some list for sainthood.

I'll leave out the details since I guess in the end it won't matter. I just needed to vent...


Aaarrrg!


To all DMs that know my pain, you have my sympathies.

Okay, thanks for reading. Carry on with your day.

fba827

Our game group has a non-regular meet up schedule, which probably averages to about once a month now (some months we met more often, some months not at all).

This weekend, since some of us can get together, I (for whatever reason that can only be explained by insanity) offered to DM a side game.

This will help me scratch that itch I've had to roll dice, and I feel good that it will give our regular DM a chance to play. But, wow, I'm feeling so.... nervous and excited at the same time over the prospect of DMing my first 4e game.

Last time I DMed was 10 years ago with AD&D and my campaigns were heavily detailed, interconnecting plots. I feel so rusty and my head is already swarming with all these things I feel like I must do (for instance, my brain doesn't let me put in a monster/encounter/treasure without there being reason for it to be there for the purpose of the adventure/dungeon/etc, and I must have backup plans in case the players don't follow the leads to the preplanned ideas).

At the same time, it will be exciting as a creative outlet and to see how the story in my head plays out at the table...

Ah well, wish me luck ...

fba827