The problem with social skill challenges
Posted 8th July 2008 at 09:02 AM by Graf
This is a post about social skill challenges, more than other sorts. Some of the non-social skill challenges I've seen, like the one in the Heathen adventure in Dungeon, seem like they work better to me. But the system doesn't work well for social interactions, nor is it fun.
The problem with social skill challenges is that "the system" that it's replaced what was often a roleplaying system; with all the nuances and fun of arguing with your friends.
The new skill challenge mechanic is almost entirely a roll based system.
vs a flat DC.
and player actions have little effect.
There is some evidence that it was developed at the very tail end of the development cycle (it's not really implemented at all in Keep on the Shadowfell... except for one, somewhat forced, encounter).
And that lack of development really shows.
Basically, when building a skill challenge, you pick a couple of simple variables and then you roll some dice.
The problem, really, is that this simple system doesn't address what actually happens. There are two, unsatisfactory, choices for groups.
The DMG makes it sound a lot like skill challneges are supposed to be like fights. They compare them several times.
But fighting in DnD is compellingbecause you get to beat up creatures and take their stuff. because you have a bunch of good choices to make. And the choices you make make a big difference.
Social skill challenges don't include those choices, or those ramifications and that's a big blotch on the system.
The problem with social skill challenges is that "the system" that it's replaced what was often a roleplaying system; with all the nuances and fun of arguing with your friends.
The new skill challenge mechanic is almost entirely a roll based system.
vs a flat DC.
and player actions have little effect.
There is some evidence that it was developed at the very tail end of the development cycle (it's not really implemented at all in Keep on the Shadowfell... except for one, somewhat forced, encounter).
And that lack of development really shows.
Basically, when building a skill challenge, you pick a couple of simple variables and then you roll some dice.
The problem, really, is that this simple system doesn't address what actually happens. There are two, unsatisfactory, choices for groups.
1. People make their arguments in advance, the DM assigns a +2 here or there for particularly good ideas.
And the rolls determine what happens.
The Problem: A terrible idea can get a great roll, and a "duh-nobody-can-possibly-disagree-with-that" argument can get a bad roll and you wind up with an NPC acting, basically, like a moron.
2. Roll first and then roleplay it out. This is, usually, what happens on the PbP boards (because you roll and then complete your post). The advantage of this is that you can roleplay to match the quality of your argument. If you roll a 1, you just have your character say something idiotic.
The Problem: PCs don't have any input.
The DMG makes it sound a lot like skill challneges are supposed to be like fights. They compare them several times.
But fighting in DnD is compelling
Social skill challenges don't include those choices, or those ramifications and that's a big blotch on the system.
Total Comments 3
Comments
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Even a bad move in combat can still result in a beneficial result, and a brilliant tactic can result in failure. It almost always depends on the dice. The whole idea, as with 3.X, is that there is a system to represent that the characters have social attributes just like they have physical/combat ones. It means that someone who never bothers to take social skills for their character can't just act as if they did, and someone who does take social skills does not have to have them in real life. Just like combat.
The most important thing to remember, is that skill challenge system is more of a structure, a guideline, to work with. Nothing there is written in a way that you have to follow it exactly. The skill challenges start to work better when you change around values and mechanics, as opposed to combat which would just fall apart.
I do agree that it seems to have been something with little play test time, though I get that feeling with much of the DMG.Posted 8th July 2008 at 03:29 PM by ripster0
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>Even a bad move in combat can still result in a
> beneficial result, and a brilliant tactic can result
> in failure.
You aren't refuting anything that I'm saying. You're saying something that I wasn't saying "That player choices are the only thing that matters in combat" and then trying to refute it.
Which is easy to do. 'cause it's a dumb thing to say.
The point I was making was that players don't get meaningful choices in social skill challenges, and that it's a change from prior editions and also different from combat.
> The most important thing to remember, is that
> skill challenge system is more of a structure, a
> guideline, to work with.
I call this the rule 0 excuse.
I imagine a designer saying "uh, ok, so my design sucks. But you can ignore it..."
Sorry but this isn't "an important thing to remember."
It's a lame excuse for bad design.Posted 9th July 2008 at 04:12 AM by Graf - You don't ever have to use skill challenges, or at least not for social interactions. Not everything is a skill challenge, only what the DM decides is. If you feel strongly that your players roleplay in a way that makes the game fun then stick with that. If you call that a rule 0, then you've been doing it all along anyway, since characters have had skills and abilities representing social aptitude before.
You also miss the point about comparing it to combat. What a player thinks his character is capable of is not the same as what the character can actually accomplish. Just because a player can put on a good Columbo impersonation does not mean their character is an ace detective able to crack anyone. Just like someone who who may be a experience fighter in real life cannot rely on that instead of the dice and rules of the game.
What I am saying, when comparing this to combat, is that the players have choices to make, but just because they come up with a good one it does not mean it will work. Just like a player can flub the roll on their daily power and lose it, a great roleplayer can still have a chance that their character is not on the same page as them, which is fine because it means people don't get to ignore social skills and attributes (mostly CHA) just because they can roleplay, and people who want to play a social character do not have to be great debaters or actors.Posted 9th July 2008 at 02:40 PM by ripster0
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