Simplifying Isn't Simple
Posted 1st November 2008 at 02:02 AM by VectorSigma
I'm having a hard time paring down 3.5/OGL to get it to where I want it. Some things are hand-wave easy. Others...aren't.
For example, I'm trying to rework skills pretty much completely. I don't want a lot of mucking about with skill ranks, so we're leaning a little 4e here. Your class gives you certain skills in which you're "trained" and get a bonus. So far, so good, right?
Here's the issue. I'm looking at my simplified skill list, and all it does is exacerbate the fact that some stats are just "better" than others for general value.
Take a look at Intelligence. It would normally be my go-to stat for bonus languages, or extra 'pickup' skill points or whatever. There are a ton of d20 skills that work off of Intelligence. Compare with STR or CON, which both have more 'general' use (hit/damage, hit points/FORT), but aren't skill heavy. "But wait!" I hear you cry, "Strength gives you bonuses to Swim, Jump, Climb..." Yes, yes, I know. But I had intended to fold all of those into 'Athletics'.
So STR and CON look a little weak on the sheet. Hmm. I'm considering adding a 'Brawn' skill under STR that covers, quite simply, feats of strength - kicking in doors, lifting things, etc. Most characters wouldn't want or need to put extra points in such a thing, but some concepts might (Barbarian, any really brawny tank).
Oh, here's the other thing I realized...Saves are essentially Skills. Honestly. They progress much slower, but they work the same way, thanks to the unified d20 concept. So...why not make 'em Skills? Sort of skills. Kinda skills. Skills with a cap on how much you can drop in 'em or something. They sure do fit nice on the character sheet I sketched out, hanging out there with the skills next to each ability score (only with a square box instead of a circle to write the bonus in). *sigh*
I'm concerned that if I keep walking these roads in my mind, trying to simplify, I'll end up with the opposite.
At the moment, the character sheet looks decent (ie, "simple to the eye"). I've got the six ability scores (or the bonuses, rather) down the left-hand side. And then, next to each of them, four skills/saves that derive from them. (Except next to STR and CON, hence the visual problem). I know full well that some stats are more important than others in all versions of D&D. I wanted to downplay that somehow, but STR is what it is. Ditto CON.
Okay, so here are the stats and their four little buddies on the sheet:
STR
Athletics (skill) [Climb, Jump, et al]
Brawn (skill) [feats of STR]
CON
Fortitude (save)
Toughness (adds to hp/lvl)
Endurance? (skill)
DEX
Reflexes (save)
Acrobatics (skill) [Tumble, Balance]
Stealth (skill) [Hide, Move Silently]
Thievery (skill) [Open Lock, Pick Pocket, et al]
INT
Arcana (skill) [K:Arcana, Spellcraft]
Linguistics (skill) [Decipher Script, grants languages known]
History (skill) [History, Nobility, Heraldry]
Nature (skill)
WIS
Will (save)
Perception (skill) [Spot, Listen, Search]
Divinity (skill) [K:Religion, divine spellcraft]
Survival (skill) <-- looks weird here
CHA
Rapport (skill) [Sense Motive, Diplomacy]
Intimidate (skill) <-- not sure I even want this
Animal (skill) [Handle Animal, poss Ride??]
Perform (skill)
And I'm still missing the Craft/Profession spectrum.
But it sure does look pretty. Which, frankly, is what I want. Elegance of execution. I want the players to be able to look down at their sheet, and understand what they're looking at. Not messing with skill ranks every level. Not checking a skill against a stat. Just "I need a [whatever] check" and they look at it, and they roll it.
Maybe I'm overcomplicating this. Maybe I'm so accustomed to having skills that I think I _need_ them, when I don't. Should I just drop them completely and go old-school with ability checks? It's sorely tempting. The only real problem with doing that is that it raises a "thief abilities" issue.
Comments welcome. I'm banging my head against the wall here.
For example, I'm trying to rework skills pretty much completely. I don't want a lot of mucking about with skill ranks, so we're leaning a little 4e here. Your class gives you certain skills in which you're "trained" and get a bonus. So far, so good, right?
Here's the issue. I'm looking at my simplified skill list, and all it does is exacerbate the fact that some stats are just "better" than others for general value.
Take a look at Intelligence. It would normally be my go-to stat for bonus languages, or extra 'pickup' skill points or whatever. There are a ton of d20 skills that work off of Intelligence. Compare with STR or CON, which both have more 'general' use (hit/damage, hit points/FORT), but aren't skill heavy. "But wait!" I hear you cry, "Strength gives you bonuses to Swim, Jump, Climb..." Yes, yes, I know. But I had intended to fold all of those into 'Athletics'.
So STR and CON look a little weak on the sheet. Hmm. I'm considering adding a 'Brawn' skill under STR that covers, quite simply, feats of strength - kicking in doors, lifting things, etc. Most characters wouldn't want or need to put extra points in such a thing, but some concepts might (Barbarian, any really brawny tank).
Oh, here's the other thing I realized...Saves are essentially Skills. Honestly. They progress much slower, but they work the same way, thanks to the unified d20 concept. So...why not make 'em Skills? Sort of skills. Kinda skills. Skills with a cap on how much you can drop in 'em or something. They sure do fit nice on the character sheet I sketched out, hanging out there with the skills next to each ability score (only with a square box instead of a circle to write the bonus in). *sigh*
I'm concerned that if I keep walking these roads in my mind, trying to simplify, I'll end up with the opposite.
At the moment, the character sheet looks decent (ie, "simple to the eye"). I've got the six ability scores (or the bonuses, rather) down the left-hand side. And then, next to each of them, four skills/saves that derive from them. (Except next to STR and CON, hence the visual problem). I know full well that some stats are more important than others in all versions of D&D. I wanted to downplay that somehow, but STR is what it is. Ditto CON.
Okay, so here are the stats and their four little buddies on the sheet:
STR
Athletics (skill) [Climb, Jump, et al]
Brawn (skill) [feats of STR]
CON
Fortitude (save)
Toughness (adds to hp/lvl)
Endurance? (skill)
DEX
Reflexes (save)
Acrobatics (skill) [Tumble, Balance]
Stealth (skill) [Hide, Move Silently]
Thievery (skill) [Open Lock, Pick Pocket, et al]
INT
Arcana (skill) [K:Arcana, Spellcraft]
Linguistics (skill) [Decipher Script, grants languages known]
History (skill) [History, Nobility, Heraldry]
Nature (skill)
WIS
Will (save)
Perception (skill) [Spot, Listen, Search]
Divinity (skill) [K:Religion, divine spellcraft]
Survival (skill) <-- looks weird here
CHA
Rapport (skill) [Sense Motive, Diplomacy]
Intimidate (skill) <-- not sure I even want this
Animal (skill) [Handle Animal, poss Ride??]
Perform (skill)
And I'm still missing the Craft/Profession spectrum.
But it sure does look pretty. Which, frankly, is what I want. Elegance of execution. I want the players to be able to look down at their sheet, and understand what they're looking at. Not messing with skill ranks every level. Not checking a skill against a stat. Just "I need a [whatever] check" and they look at it, and they roll it.
Maybe I'm overcomplicating this. Maybe I'm so accustomed to having skills that I think I _need_ them, when I don't. Should I just drop them completely and go old-school with ability checks? It's sorely tempting. The only real problem with doing that is that it raises a "thief abilities" issue.
Comments welcome. I'm banging my head against the wall here.
Total Comments 2
Comments
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Have you considered looking at other rule systems for help? Your not the only guy trying to reinvent the system
Posted 1st November 2008 at 11:10 PM by MichaelSomething
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Yep, sure have. I'm keeping my eyes and ears as open as possible. The problem is that mostly what other folks seem to be doing is "3.75" in the sense of fixing and rebalancing minor things, and not necessarily with an eye toward simplification, per se.
I would consider going more retro, but there are a few things I'm not willing to give up:
1) ascending AC (an easy patch, granted)
2) some modicum of skill system (2nd ed prof counts)
3) unified level advancement xpPosted 2nd November 2008 at 04:04 AM by VectorSigma
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