What in 3.5 really needed fixing?
According to ENWorld:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthr...ghlight=fixing
According to Circus Maximus:
http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/showthread.php?t=46335
And according to Wulf (a distilled version of the above, if you will):
Overall
* First level PCs are too vulnerable.
* The power curve is too steep.
* Absolutes (immunities, automatic successes/failures)
* "The 15 Minute Adventuring Day."
Characters
* Healing is a chore for clerics; they'd rather be doing something else with their actions and their spells.
* Turn Undead uses a unique mechanic you have to look up every time you use it; and it doesn't work very well when you do.
* Wizards have no good options when they run out of spells.
* Fighters don't keep up with other classes as level increases.
* Some classes get boring after the first 4 or 5 levels.
* Familiars are too weak, animal companions are too powerful, and both are just too time consuming in combat.
* Multi-class spellcasters don't work well.
* Spell prep and spell list management takes too much time.
* Useless and sub-optimal skills and feats.
* Characters don't get enough feats.
Combat
* Players' turns take too long to resolve; combat is no fun when you spend most of your time waiting for your turn.
* Grappling rules are a pain in the ass.
* The 1-2-1 movement rules for moving diagonally on the grid are hard to remember.
* Attacks of Opportunity are confusing; it's hard to remember what provokes them and it's no fun having to "walk on eggshellls" during combat.
* Iterative attacks slow down combat.
* Buffs are hard to keep track of.
* Too many Save-or-Die effects.
* Energy drain (permanent level loss) is not fun.
Magic Items
* Identifying magic items is too difficult/not fun.
* XP for crafting magic items.
* "The Big Six" (weapon, armor & shield, stat booster, resistance, deflection, and natural armor)
DMing
* Creating stablocks for NPCs takes too long (particularly skill points).
* Calculating XP, EL, and CR.
* Scry-Buff-Teleport.
* Campaign-breaking spells (usually including scrying, divination/commune, teleport, and raise dead).
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthr...ghlight=fixing
According to Circus Maximus:
http://www.circvsmaximvs.com/showthread.php?t=46335
And according to Wulf (a distilled version of the above, if you will):
Overall
* First level PCs are too vulnerable.
* The power curve is too steep.
* Absolutes (immunities, automatic successes/failures)
* "The 15 Minute Adventuring Day."
Characters
* Healing is a chore for clerics; they'd rather be doing something else with their actions and their spells.
* Turn Undead uses a unique mechanic you have to look up every time you use it; and it doesn't work very well when you do.
* Wizards have no good options when they run out of spells.
* Fighters don't keep up with other classes as level increases.
* Some classes get boring after the first 4 or 5 levels.
* Familiars are too weak, animal companions are too powerful, and both are just too time consuming in combat.
* Multi-class spellcasters don't work well.
* Spell prep and spell list management takes too much time.
* Useless and sub-optimal skills and feats.
* Characters don't get enough feats.
Combat
* Players' turns take too long to resolve; combat is no fun when you spend most of your time waiting for your turn.
* Grappling rules are a pain in the ass.
* The 1-2-1 movement rules for moving diagonally on the grid are hard to remember.
* Attacks of Opportunity are confusing; it's hard to remember what provokes them and it's no fun having to "walk on eggshellls" during combat.
* Iterative attacks slow down combat.
* Buffs are hard to keep track of.
* Too many Save-or-Die effects.
* Energy drain (permanent level loss) is not fun.
Magic Items
* Identifying magic items is too difficult/not fun.
* XP for crafting magic items.
* "The Big Six" (weapon, armor & shield, stat booster, resistance, deflection, and natural armor)
DMing
* Creating stablocks for NPCs takes too long (particularly skill points).
* Calculating XP, EL, and CR.
* Scry-Buff-Teleport.
* Campaign-breaking spells (usually including scrying, divination/commune, teleport, and raise dead).
Total Comments 13
Comments
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Is Trailblazer going to offer solutions to all of the above, go hand in hand with Pathfinder and just fix what Pathfinder doesn't fix or something else entirely?Posted 10th July 2008 at 09:05 AM by Angellis_ater
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That's a good list, although hopefully not everybody finds everything on it to be a problem. (I don't mind about the vulnerability of first level characters, for instance).
Mike Mearls posted a list of 13 or so points that 4th edition was supposed to fix. I should have made a note of it at the time; I think it was at RPGNet.Posted 10th July 2008 at 09:53 AM by amethal -
Yes, that seems like a good list. Of course, not everyone will agree with everything. Some with say the facts are wrong, and some will say the like certain aspects.
I suppose that's really the problem when trying to "fix" things and still keeping all fans happy... *cough*4E, Pathfinder*cough*Posted 10th July 2008 at 10:32 AM by Mustrum_Ridcully -
Well, I've done my best to keep the list to things that have a pretty broad consensus.
There are only a couple of things on there that I think are objective or optional (more feats, maybe top of the list).
Part of what I am attempting with Trailblazer isn't just to say, "Here's my list, here's my fixes..." but to identify what I think are problems, explain why I think they are problems, explain the possible fixes, and then explain the fixes I settled on.
As with Grim Tales, I want it to be a bit more conversational and certainly empowering for the DM to be able to use Trailblazer as a jumping off point for his own tweaks.
I expect that Trailblazer will diverge from Pathfinder in a couple of places:
1) I am trying not to make changes, only fixes. No change without a clearly defined problem stated up front.
2) My list of problems might not be the same as their list of problems.
3) Even given a mutual understanding of a problem, we might arrive at different fixes.
I am very interested to see the influences of both Monte and (especially) SKR on Jason's process and results once the beta is available.Posted 10th July 2008 at 12:51 PM by Wulf Ratbane - Well, with respect to both Pathfinder and most especially 4e, it's important to remember that "fixes" for Paizo and WotC might include some external considerations outside the functionality of the rules themselves.Quote:Originally Posted by MustrumI suppose that's really the problem when trying to "fix" things and still keeping all fans happy... *cough*4E, Pathfinder*cough*
With 4e for example, let's look at a change that has quite a few people upset: The change to cosmology. Lots of folks say, "Why did they change that? That wasn't a fix!"
Well, of course it was. The "old" cosmology didn't do as good a job as it could have done to ease entry into the game for new players. The new cosmology-- if you buy the explanation, of course-- makes more "sense."
I don't think changes like that are as big of a motivator for Paizo, but they are undoubtedly there, as they have a whole product line to support. I have the luxury of being able to attack the design directly and to do it with an audience that is already invested in 3.5 with mastery.Posted 10th July 2008 at 01:00 PM by Wulf Ratbane -
He did say it was a Wulfized list. And several things on it both I have never personally see as a problem and I think attempts to fix would cause more damage than it fixed.Quote:That's a good list, although hopefully not everybody finds everything on it to be a problem.
But you know what they say about opinions.Posted 10th July 2008 at 02:37 PM by Psion - I value your opinion, Psion. What caught your eye?Posted 10th July 2008 at 02:45 PM by Wulf Ratbane
- Well, there's lots here I agree with, and some that should come as no surprise because we've debated about them before.
In this particular case, the one that stood out to me as both one that has never been a problem for groups I've played in AND one that really gives me heartburn about 4e's attempt to fix it is "The 1-2-1 movement rules for moving diagonally."
Things I feel are right on target include iterative attacks, long turns, tracking buffs and conditions, and insufficient feats.
I've house ruled identifying and XP myself. I haven't used the CR method for XP in a long time. More recently dispensed with XP for a simpler encounter point rule. I might post that in my blog at some point.Posted 10th July 2008 at 03:21 PM by Psion - Well, my fix for 1-2-1 movement would be doubling movement rates, and then charging 2 for adjacent moves and 3 for diagonals.Posted 10th July 2008 at 03:37 PM by Wulf Ratbane
- When I read message board posts on "what needs to be fixed", I notice one thing - some fixes are merely flavor stuff, or "idealistic" things. "I hate Gnomes". "I don't want PCs be able to create magical items."
Others are really addressing playability issues, like "Grapple is to complicated" or "High level Buffs and Debuffs slow the game down".
I think your list is pretty good in that regard. It seems really only to address the latter part instead of the first.Posted 10th July 2008 at 10:38 PM by Mustrum_Ridcully - So Trailblazer will be somewhat like "Book of Experimental Might" except where that is Monte's house rules, these will focus specifically on problems in 3.5 and present fixes. Wow, you got yourself a buyer
Posted 10th July 2008 at 11:33 PM by Angellis_ater -
A neat exercise might be to identify what methods have been taken by various parties to address these issues (Monte's BoXM, E6, various homebrew systems, Pathfinders Beta release) and point out the pros and cons of each. Might be more than you want to do in a blog, although I'd expect on some level you'll be looking at those sorts of things during the design process.Posted 14th July 2008 at 02:22 PM by Kid Charlemagne - At this point it would be really hard for me to nail down all the influences on the design. I have BoXM but only skimmed it; haven't read E6 but am aware of it; have Pathfinder but am waiting on the Beta before I adopt any specific design.
Honestly most of the "old" design work is scattered around here on ENworld. You know the threads; you participated in most of them.
Posted 14th July 2008 at 03:31 PM by Wulf Ratbane
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